Penn State football officials implicated in covering up on campus child rape by coach

[Notorious Honey Badger]

My initial gut reaction to all of this is a foaming-at-the-mouth "death penalty!!"

If your going to give SMU the death penalty for recruiting violations, SURELY covering up and facilitating the rape of young boys deserves the same treatment

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by Locke

Still, in a way I cant help but feel bad for Paterno. He should have done something to stop it, he had the power, so now we have to assume he either didnt have the knowledge or ignored the knowledge in favour of his own self-interest, in which case hes effectively aided and abetted.

At the end of the day though, hes not the one who put his dick somewhere it shouldnt have been.

It's not just Paterno either. McQueary and the janitor are going to spend the rest of their lives wishing that they'd gotten physical with Sandusky. The higher ups and Paterno are going to always wish that they'd taken the allegations more seriously. Sandusky's wife and children have to be devastated that they didn't see the warning signs. Most or all of those people deserve some degree of blame, but now their lives are ruined due to situations they never should have been put in to begin with. And that's in addition to the most tragic victims - the children. I just can't comprehend how Sandusky can live with himself. Other people may have made mistakes, but he's pure evil.

[afc wimbledon]

Just so we are clear, the chances Sandusky didn't molest college kids trying to make the team back in the day are pretty well slim to none as well, I would expect as the whole sordid story comes out we will find it overlapped with the football program completely.

It is also impossible to see how Sandusky 'retired' the year after he is caught and admits to innapropriate behaviour with young boys, this is a guy that turned down head coaching jobs in order to replace Paterno, and yet somehow the rest of the administration and coaching staff weren't aware of the problem. You have to assume pretty well everyone was aware of this and yet turned a blind eye to a peadophile's continued involvement with vunerable children. You also cannot draw any other conclusion to the authorities holding off on an arrest in a case they had been investigating for years until Joe got his winning record, which, in and of itself, should get the program closed.

I think the revulsion and disgust will effectively kill the football program no matter what the college does, fair or not, I just suspect over the next week or so the trustees will realize the program is screwed anyway and so they might as well try and turn it into a chance to distance the school from it.

[GirlySports]

I think McQueary will be under severe pressure to disclose what he told Paterno. Especially when the civil suits heat up.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Just so we are clear, the chances Sandusky didn't molest college kids trying to make the team back in the day are pretty well slim to none as well, I would expect as the whole sordid story comes out we will find it overlapped with the football program completely.

And I think the revulsion and disgust will effectively kill the football program no matter what the college does, fair or not, I just suspect over the next week or so the trustees will realize the program is screwed anyway and so they might as well try and turn it into a chance to distance the school from it.

I think you're far from correct on both points. The first one makes absolutely no sense. This guy was preying on children, there's a big difference between that and a 19-20 year old college football player. I don't see the connection.

As to the second point, again I think you lack an understanding of what college football means to an institution, it's students and it's alumni base.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by valo403

I think you're far from correct on both points. The first one makes absolutely no sense. This guy was preying on children, there's a big difference between that and a 19-20 year old college football player. I don't see the connection.

As to the second point, again I think you lack an understanding of what college football means to an institution, it's students and it's alumni base.

This an area I do have some expertise in, and you may be right but my experience is that predators like this will tend to be, by neccesity, flexible, and the period before the sick ####### became a foster parent and founded his charity, he probably had little outlet for his deviancy, at that point he likely would look to groom younger smaller male students. That would be more typical than not in a case like this, his prefered age range seemed to be 10 - 12, which tends to have some element of adultness to it as well.

As to your second point I do have some understanding but several years of agonisingly evil stories of sodomy and cover up will trump all of that for at least a few years.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I think the revulsion and disgust will effectively kill the football program no matter what the college does, fair or not, I just suspect over the next week or so the trustees will realize the program is screwed anyway and so they might as well try and turn it into a chance to distance the school from it.

The program will suffer for sure, but not for the reason you think. For an 18 year old jock, State College is about as undesirable of a place to live as you could imagine. It's a small town in the middle of nowhere in rural central Pennsylvania. All things equal, a star athlete would rather play somewhere else, but year after year, Penn State manages to field competitive teams because parents want their sons to play for Joe Paterno. Without him, there will be no reason to go to Penn State over a college with better weather or at least in a town that isn't a 2 hour drive from the nearest city. There's no way they'll shut down the program, but Penn State's days of being a top 25 team are coming to an end.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

This an area I do have some expertise in, and you may be right but my experience is that predators like this will tend to be, by neccesity, flexible, and the period before the sick ####### became a foster parent and founded his charity, he probably had little outlet for his deviancy, at that point he likely would look to groom younger smaller male students. That would be more typical than not in a case like this.

As to your second point I do have some understanding but several years of agonisingly evil stories of sodomy and cover up will trump all of that for at least a few years.

And that fits the college football player demographic how exactly?

I'm sure there are many other victims in the woodwork, I don't question that at all, but I find it highly unlikely that they were 19 year old college football players at the time.

I do understand the disgust and outrage trumping everything, I just don't see a decision of that magnitude being made on that basis.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by gargamel

The program will suffer for sure, but not for the reason you think. For an 18 year old jock, State College is about as undesirable of a place to live as you could imagine. It's a small town in the middle of nowhere in rural central Pennsylvania. All things equal, a star athlete would rather play somewhere else, but year after year, Penn State manages to field competitive teams because parents want their sons to play for Joe Paterno. Without him, there will be no reason to go to Penn State over a college with better weather or at least in a town that isn't a 2 hour drive from the nearest city. There's no way they'll shut down the program, but Penn State's days of being a top 25 team are coming to an end.

I think that depends on what happens going forward. Who takes over will play a big part in that.

It should also be noted that the geographic location of PSU and the type of town it sits in isn't all that different from numerous college football programs across the country, many of whom have had great success or are at least typically competitive.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by valo403

And that fits the college football player demographic how exactly?

I'm sure there are many other victims in the woodwork, I don't question that at all, but I find it highly unlikely that they were 19 year old college football players at the time.

I do understand the disgust and outrage trumping everything, I just don't see a decision of that magnitude being made on that basis.

As a respected coach he had access and a fair amount of influence over far more than just the players.

I just think in the end closing the program for a few years will be the easiest thing to do for the college, I find it hard to think that with the massive and ongoing financial hit, the difficulty in recruiting players, the questions that will hang over any one on the staff that worked with Sandusky and Paterno. Even things like bowl games start to become problamatic, which sponsering company wants to have their name associated with a school which will for the foreseeable future be known as 'pedo state' or some variation.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by valo403

You clearly don't understand my argument and are attempting to characterize it to fit your preconceived notions of what I "get" or believe. There's really no need for me to carry on discussing it with you if that's the way this is going to operate.

I think you're the one who doesn't understand your own argument. You are anthropomorphizing "football program" as if it is some kind of independent entity. See your quote below:

Originally Posted by valo403

I think there is a difference between actions perpetrated by a football program and actions perpetrated by individuals within a football program. If you don't see it that way, fine.

That's so sloppy it's worthy of every bit of derision I can heap upon it. The "football program" doesn't exist apart from the people running it, and their collective understanding of its purposes, goals, and rules. It has no independent volition, it's not a philosophical position, and it doesn't "perpetrate any actions". That you don't see how this undercuts your entire argument, shows that you aren't really arguing so much as reiterating your assumptions in different forms.

Again, the idea that football concerns should trump all other concerns is where the root of this cover-up came from, and the best way to demonstrate that this isn't so is to end, or at least suspend, football at Penn State. Yes, this will greatly upset the alumni, and the student body, and the staff, and the local economy, but far more importantly, it will demonstrate that football, in the grand scheme of life, is a freakin' game, not a sacred institution whose practitioners are above morality and question.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by jammies

I think you're the one who doesn't understand your own argument. You are anthropomorphizing "football program" as if it is some kind of independent entity. See your quote below:



That's so sloppy it's worthy of every bit of derision I can heap upon it. The "football program" doesn't exist apart from the people running it, and their collective understanding of its purposes, goals, and rules. It has no independent volition, it's not a philosophical position, and it doesn't "perpetrate any actions". That you don't see how this undercuts your entire argument, shows that you aren't really arguing so much as reiterating your assumptions in different forms.

Again, the idea that football concerns should trump all other concerns is where the root of this cover-up came from, and the best way to demonstrate that this isn't so is to end, or at least suspend, football at Penn State. Yes, this will greatly upset the alumni, and the student body, and the staff, and the local economy, but far more importantly, it will demonstrate that football, in the grand scheme of life, is a freakin' game, not a sacred institution whose practitioners are above morality and question.

These allegations had nothing to do with football though. A "football program" has a problem if players are improperly recruited. It has a problem if players are taking performance enhancing drugs. It has a problem if players are betting on games that they're playing in. It has a problem if players are getting paid. It has a problem if players are allowed to play when they should be academically ineligible. Those are all things that were covered in the mandatory lectures that I had to attend during my freshman year of college in order be be an NCAA athlete.

You know what they didn't tell us? Don't get molested. Because that's not a football problem. That's not a problem with the program. That's a serious issue with the individual who commits those heinous acts and with anyone who looked the other way, but I guarantee that Nebraska isn't complaining that Penn State has an unfair advantage this week because Sandusky was a predator and other coaches didn't stop him. Why? Because that isn't a problem with the "football program;" it's a problem with some people involved with the football program.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by gargamel

These allegations had nothing to do with football though. A "football program" has a problem if players are improperly recruited. It has a problem if players are taking performance enhancing drugs. It has a problem if players are betting on games that they're playing in. It has a problem if players are getting paid. It has a problem if players are allowed to play when they should be academically ineligible. Those are all things that were covered in the mandatory lectures that I had to attend during my freshman year of college in order be be an NCAA athlete.

You know what they didn't tell us? Don't get molested. Because that's not a football problem. That's not a problem with the program. That's a serious issue with the individual who commits those heinous acts and with anyone who looked the other way, but I guarantee that Nebraska isn't complaining that Penn State has an unfair advantage this week because Sandusky was a predator and other coaches didn't stop him. Why? Because that isn't a problem with the "football program;" it's a problem with some people involved with the football program.

I'm going to disagree with you, not in principle, but in practice.
The NCAA has the same problem as Joe Paterno. In the letter of the law so far this isn't a violation of their rules, in the same way Joe did what he was legally required, but what this is is a huge cloud once again hanging over all college football.

It is yet another clear sign that college sports are a seperate and entirely uncontrolled law unto themselves with wholly to much power and money within the colleges.
So the NCAA is right now trying to work out what makes it look better, doing nothing and claiming it had nothing to do with them, purely an internal and Penn State Affair, or find a way to crack down on the school to make it look like they give a damn and are going to clean up the mess, it is pretty much a PR choice though in the end. If they think they will look better cracking down on the program they will find an 'in'.

In fact I would go so far as to guess that the NCAA and Penn States legal and PR firms are actively collaberating to try and do some joint damage control right now, I could see them agreeing to some kind of program suspension that the college can go along with to try and get the stench off both of them.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

To use a parallel we are all familiar with (unfortunately), the Swift Current Broncos were not contracted because of Graham James, despite very similar circumstances. There were individuals who did not do the right thing, ask the right questions, etc., but those were failings of individuals associated with the Broncos, not an inherent corruption of the team. Similarly here, it's not "Penn State football" as such that is inherently corrupt, just individuals associated with it. If you clean out all the individuals and replace them with "good people", Penn State football will be no worse than any other football program in the nation (leaving aside general issues common to many programs). This could have happened at FSU or Michigan or Alabana, but the individuals in question happened to be working for/associated with PSU. PSU football will be devastated going forward regardless, but I do not see this as a flaw in the institution, as much as much as personal character flaws of individuals.

I don't know about that. The Broncos are a private, for-profit business focused entirely on hockey.

Penn State is a, umm, state institution with 95 thousand students, a huge endowment (thanks, wikipedia) and a reputation and responsibility that goes far beyond (despite outward appearances) football.

The whole school is going to take a beating on this for years, if not decades. For PR purposes alone they should shut the whole football program down just to show that the football team can't taint the whole school, even though it already has.

And besides, they are going to suck anyway, and won't be bringing any prestige to the school for an awful long time.

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by jammies

I think you're the one who doesn't understand your own argument. You are anthropomorphizing "football program" as if it is some kind of independent entity. See your quote below:



That's so sloppy it's worthy of every bit of derision I can heap upon it. The "football program" doesn't exist apart from the people running it, and their collective understanding of its purposes, goals, and rules. It has no independent volition, it's not a philosophical position, and it doesn't "perpetrate any actions". That you don't see how this undercuts your entire argument, shows that you aren't really arguing so much as reiterating your assumptions in different forms.

Again, the idea that football concerns should trump all other concerns is where the root of this cover-up came from, and the best way to demonstrate that this isn't so is to end, or at least suspend, football at Penn State. Yes, this will greatly upset the alumni, and the student body, and the staff, and the local economy, but far more importantly, it will demonstrate that football, in the grand scheme of life, is a freakin' game, not a sacred institution whose practitioners are above morality and question.

My thoughts exactly...just said in a much more articulate way than I could ever say it. Shut that whole program down for a year and show the people of that community that it is a damn game, not a religion. How on earth does a guy stay coach of a team for that long? Dictators have come and gone and this guy is still the coach?

College football programs in the States are like a religion with a very strict church.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by valo403

And that fits the college football player demographic how exactly?

I'm sure there are many other victims in the woodwork, I don't question that at all, but I find it highly unlikely that they were 19 year old college football players at the time.

I do understand the disgust and outrage trumping everything, I just don't see a decision of that magnitude being made on that basis.

Apparently Sandusky liked to wrestle with students! I think this will go way beyond the kids.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Apparently Sandusky liked to wrestle with students! I think this will go way beyond the kids.

Way beyond the kids how? Your hatred of all things American is quite apparent, but really how do you think this will ripple past what is now known?

Penn State is not shutting football down. That's plain ######ed. The actions of those morons that allowed this to happen are outside the realm of the NCAA, football in the states and real life are MILES apart. Sure the school may take a PR hit in the interim but in the long run it means nothing. Penn State is a Big 10 and NCAA staple. The football program will be fine, the image of the Uni may take a hit but that is it.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Way beyond the kids how? Your hatred of all things American is quite apparent, but really how do you think this will ripple past what is now known?

Penn State is not shutting football down. That's plain ######ed. The actions of those morons that allowed this to happen are outside the realm of the NCAA, football in the states and real life are MILES apart. Sure the school may take a PR hit in the interim but in the long run it means nothing. Penn State is a Big 10 and NCAA staple. The football program will be fine, the image of the Uni may take a hit but that is it.

I think if it turns out that Sandusky was sexually abusing students it will ripple way beyond what is known.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I think if it turns out that Sandusky was sexually abusing students it will ripple way beyond what is known.

He was! What do you mean by "what is known"? Penn State football isn't going anywhere, they may take a small hit but that is all.

What happens if a coach for West Ham is caught doing the same thing? Nothing in the grand scheme of things. There's the public backlash and then things go on as they were.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

He was! What do you mean by "what is known"? Penn State football isn't going anywhere, they may take a small hit but that is all.

What happens if a coach for West Ham is caught doing the same thing? Nothing in the grand scheme of things. There's the public backlash and then things go on as they were.

West Ham isn't run by donation though, Penn State is, no money no football and it aint a great time to be asking for money in the US as it is.

How likely is it that 'please donate money so we can pay off the kids we allowed to be raped' is going to be a successfull pitch this year?