Penn State football officials implicated in covering up on campus child rape by coach

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by valo403

Financially this will wind up devastating in terms of lawsuits, and it will hurt recruiting, but I think you are drastically overstating the impact on the football program.

They waited until Joe had his 409 wins before arresting a predatory pedophile, I cannot see how anyone including the most ardent PSU boaster doesn't see that as a disgusting act of putting football over the safety of children, and that could be fatal.

How do you continue to run a program everyone finds sickening and will continue to for several years as this winds through court? I can see the college just deciding all siad and done closing it down for a few years is the easiest and cheapest way, as it stands I doubt the program will be able to pay for itself in the near future.

[troutman]

The Sklar Brothers
Hey Penn State Fans, you were a little inappropriate last night, signed the Westboro Baptist Church. #warromeemailconstruction

[valo403]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

They waited until Joe had his 409 wins before arresting a predatory pedophile, I cannot see how anyone including the most ardent PSU boaster doesn't see that as a disgusting act of putting football over the safety of children, and that could be fatal.

How do you continue to run a program everyone finds sickening and will continue to for several years as this winds through court? I can see the college just deciding all siad and done closing it down for a few years is the easiest and cheapest way, as it stands I doubt the program will be able to pay for itself in the near future.

I don't think you have the slightest understanding of college football or what the general population thinks.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by valo403

Something is being done. People are being indicted.

I get that, believe me I do.

What about suspending Penn from appearing in Bowl games though. You still get most of the economic benefits of a football program, but it effectively puts out a message to all programs about coverups.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I get that, believe me I do.

What about suspending Penn from appearing in Bowl games though. You still get most of the economic benefits of a football program, but it effectively puts out a message to all programs about coverups.

Again, this isn't a football program at fault, it's individuals within the program and administrators of the university. Penalties should be handed down and enforced in the realm in which the infraction occurred, and this wasn't something related to football.

[CaptainCrunch]

It is, the head coach was involved and so was an assistant coach, and it looks pretty clear that the head coach covered things up.

So the program is certainly involved.

[jammies]

Valo403, is there something you don't get about how the "football program" was at the root of how this was covered up? That nothing was done was attributable both to Paterno - who wasn't just an "individual within the program", but the architect, leader, and spirit of the program - and to the misbegotten idea that football is more important than anything else, including the rape of children.

Suspending the program will send the clear message that it's better to be upfront about any future such allegations and to investigate them fully, else you risk far more than some bad publicity for the school.

[gargamel]

The difference is that this isn't a competitive issue. If some schools pay players or allow players on the team despite failing their classes, those teams have an advantage over teams that play by the rules. Nobody benefitted from what happened here, so the NCAA won't get involved.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by jammies

Valo403, is there something you don't get about how the "football program" was at the root of how this was covered up? That nothing was done was attributable both to Paterno - who wasn't just an "individual within the program", but the architect, leader, and spirit of the program - and to the misbegotten idea that football is more important than anything else, including the rape of children.

Suspending the program will send the clear message that it's better to be upfront about any future such allegations and to investigate them fully, else you risk far more than some bad publicity for the school.

I see this as the actions of individuals within the football program, not actions of the football program. Disagree with me if you will, that's more than acceptable.

[jammies]

If you got it, you wouldn't think that suspending the program wouldn't accomplish anything, which you clearly do. I don't really care what the general population thinks, or how college football works, the point is that suspending the program would send a message that protecting an institution is not the primary duty of those who confront similar allegations of wrongdoing in the future, because that will lead to a worse outcome in the long run.

Your argument is akin to saying that incarcerating a murderer will also affect his ability to provide for his family, so it's not fair and shouldn't be done. That is not the point of punishment, which is not to be fair, but to discourage antisocial behaviour by making its consequences unpleasant.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by jammies

If you got it, you wouldn't think that suspending the program wouldn't accomplish anything, which you clearly do. I don't really care what the general population thinks, or how college football works, the point is that suspending the program would send a message that protecting an institution is not the primary duty of those who confront similar allegations of wrongdoing in the future, because that will lead to a worse outcome in the long run.

Your argument is akin to saying that incarcerating a murderer will also affect his ability to provide for his family, so it's not fair and shouldn't be done. That is not the point of punishment, which is not to be fair, but to discourage antisocial behaviour by making its consequences unpleasant.

You clearly don't understand my argument and are attempting to characterize it to fit your preconceived notions of what I "get" or believe. There's really no need for me to carry on discussing it with you if that's the way this is going to operate.

I think there is a difference between actions perpetrated by a football program and actions perpetrated by individuals within a football program. If you don't see it that way, fine.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by valo403

I see this as the actions of individuals within the football program, not actions of the football program. Disagree with me if you will, that's more than acceptable.

Which would have been fine had the right actions been taken when it first surfaced. The fact that high ranking authorities within the football program chose to cover it up, or did not to take all the actions needed to stop it, makes the program itself responsible. Does it suck for the kids currently enrolled in it? Most certainly, but that's the consequence that the university itself has to deal with.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Which would have been fine had the right actions been taken when it first surfaced. The fact that high ranking authorities within the football program chose to cover it up, or did not to take all the actions needed to stop it, makes the program itself responsible. Does it suck for the kids currently enrolled in it? Most certainly, but that's the consequence that the university itself has to deal with.

The only person implicated in the cover-up who is involved with the football program is Paterno.

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by valo403

The only person implicated in the cover-up who is involved with the football program is Paterno.

Yet

I find your defence, you might call it something else, but it is defence of the actions of the "individuals" (who by the way make up the football program), very distasteful.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

Yet

I find your defence, you might call it something else, but it is defence of the actions of the "individuals" (who by the way make up the football program), very distasteful.

Are you f'in kidding me? I haven't defended a single person. Not one.

What I've done is separate those individuals from the greater program.

I find your characterization of my posts downright despicable.

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by valo403

Are you f'in kidding me? I haven't defended a single person. Not one.

What I've done is separate those individuals from the greater program.

I find your characterization of my posts downright despicable.

That is why I put "individuals" in quotes, the program is the individuals, especially when the guy heading it all has been indicted.

[Locke]

Still, in a way I cant help but feel bad for Paterno. He should have done something to stop it, he had the power, so now we have to assume he either didnt have the knowledge or ignored the knowledge in favour of his own self-interest, in which case hes effectively aided and abetted.

At the end of the day though, hes not the one who put his dick somewhere it shouldnt have been.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

That is why I put "individuals" in quotes, the program is the individuals, especially when the guy heading it all has been indicted.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, I don't see it that way. I see this as actions of individuals, not actions of the entire program. I think the program should be gutted from top to bottom, but I don't see a reason to kill it off.

I still find your characterization of anything I have said as defending the actions of anyone here to be incredibly insulting.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Locke

Still, in a way I cant help but feel bad for Paterno. He should have done something to stop it, he had the power, so now we have to assume he either didnt have the knowledge or ignored the knowledge in favour of his own self-interest, in which case hes effectively aided and abetted.

At the end of the day though, hes not the one who put his dick somewhere it shouldnt have been.

And remember that at the time, even if it happened 10-13 years ago, Paterno is/was in his SEVENTIES! He probably went to the AD and gave 'a version' of the story, the AD went ok coach, we'll take care of this, Sandusky is no longer on your staff anyways so you just stick to coaching, we'll take care of the rest. And Paterno maybe half not wanting to believe these allegations anyways, went with it.

I think there is truly an age/generational gap here. Sexual child abuse is sort of a new phenomenon. Especaily raping boys (the older generations would just flat out dismiss it as hogwash). Before it was always hush hush. A good survey would be for all of us to tell this story to people over 70 and see what their opinions are.

[VladtheImpaler]

To use a parallel we are all familiar with (unfortunately), the Swift Current Broncos were not contracted because of Graham James, despite very similar circumstances. There were individuals who did not do the right thing, ask the right questions, etc., but those were failings of individuals associated with the Broncos, not an inherent corruption of the team. Similarly here, it's not "Penn State football" as such that is inherently corrupt, just individuals associated with it. If you clean out all the individuals and replace them with "good people", Penn State football will be no worse than any other football program in the nation (leaving aside general issues common to many programs). This could have happened at FSU or Michigan or Alabana, but the individuals in question happened to be working for/associated with PSU. PSU football will be devastated going forward regardless, but I do not see this as a flaw in the institution, as much as much as personal character flaws of individuals.