I believe one of the items suggested by this movement is to get government to change the taxation system/rules/regulations/etc. that enable a guy like this to exploit the tax system. I also believe one of the items suggested by this movement is to remove corporate dollars from politics that may have enabled a guy like this to make a back room deal, if that is what you are possibly referring to.
Great. So you're going to be getting this guys money rather than charities. I say this because that's the reason so many people donate to charity is for the tax deduction. Awesome. Now instead of curing cancer we are giving our money to lazy bums that want to sit back and have everything handed to them. Seems like a great idea.
Great. So you're going to be getting this guys money rather than charities. I say this because that's the reason so many people donate to charity is for the tax deduction. Awesome. Now instead of curing cancer we are giving our money to lazy bums that want to sit back and have everything handed to them. Seems like a great idea.
People aren't suggesting changing charity deduction rules. They're suggesting changing things that allow companies to hide money offshore by never returning their profits to Canada or the US, stopping schemes which allow companies to defer taxes for years into the future and take advantage of potentially lower tax rates (I believe the current Conservative government is working on this right now), preventing the artificial inflation of overseas tax credits which lower the amount owed here, stopping businesses and executives from exploiting the myriad of loopholes that exist relating to stock options and how they're deducted and taxed, among many other things.
There are thousands of ways businesses can avoid paying taxes and people want to stop that. Some of these schemes give an unfair advantage to multi-national big businesses at the expense of smaller Canadian owned firms and people would like to see that stopped and a more level playing field introduced. The current government to their credit is starting to do some of these things, but there's still tons of room for improvement, and none of it involves removing charity deductions.
People aren't suggesting changing charity deduction rules. They're suggesting changing things that allow companies to hide money offshore by never returning their profits to Canada or the US, stopping schemes which allow companies to defer taxes for years into the future and take advantage of potentially lower tax rates (I believe the current Conservative government is working on this right now), preventing the artificial inflation of overseas tax credits which lower the amount owed here, stopping businesses and executives from exploiting the myriad of loopholes that exist relating to stock options and how they're deducted and taxed, among many other things.
There are thousands of ways businesses can avoid paying taxes and people want to stop that. Some of these schemes give an unfair advantage to multi-national big businesses at the expense of smaller Canadian owned firms and people would like to see that stopped and a more level playing field introduced. The current government to their credit is starting to do some of these things, but there's still tons of room for improvement, and none of it involves removing charity deductions.
No one has yet to explain how this is Wall Street, or any other corporations fault. They are smart business people, taking advantage of every rule they can to maximize their profits. If they weren't they would have their shareholders to answer to.
So to echo CC's statements, they should be in front of the White House, not the NYSE.
No one has yet to explain how this is Wall Street, or any other corporations fault. They are smart business people, taking advantage of every rule they can to maximize their profits. If they weren't they would have their shareholders to answer to.
So to echo CC's statements, they should be in front of the White House, not the NYSE.
I agree with this. The whole occupy whatever movement makes very little sense, but I do think that our society needs to take a cold hard look at itself from top to bottom.
One of the aspects that I think many people are having a hard time with is that there was such a long spurt of prosperity that a recession stings extra hard.
No one has yet to explain how this is Wall Street, or any other corporations fault. They are smart business people, taking advantage of every rule they can to maximize their profits. If they weren't they would have their shareholders to answer to.
So to echo CC's statements, they should be in front of the White House, not the NYSE.
I'm going to use a monologue that I think works well in this situation.
NSFW!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Stone and Trey Parker
We're (The US government) dicks! We're reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks. And the Film Actors Guild (99%) are pussies. And Kim Jong Il (Wall Street) is an ass hole. Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get ####ed by dicks. But dicks also #### ass holes: ass holes that just want to #### on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with ass holes their way. But the only thing that can #### an ass hole is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is: they #### too much or #### when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a ##### to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of #### that they become ass holes themselves... because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes. I don't know much about this crazy, crazy world, but I do know this: If you don't let us #### this ass hole, we're going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in ####!
People aren't suggesting changing charity deduction rules. They're suggesting changing things that allow companies to hide money offshore by never returning their profits to Canada or the US, stopping schemes which allow companies to defer taxes for years into the future and take advantage of potentially lower tax rates (I believe the current Conservative government is working on this right now), preventing the artificial inflation of overseas tax credits which lower the amount owed here, stopping businesses and executives from exploiting the myriad of loopholes that exist relating to stock options and how they're deducted and taxed, among many other things.
There are thousands of ways businesses can avoid paying taxes and people want to stop that. Some of these schemes give an unfair advantage to multi-national big businesses at the expense of smaller Canadian owned firms and people would like to see that stopped and a more level playing field introduced. The current government to their credit is starting to do some of these things, but there's still tons of room for improvement, and none of it involves removing charity deductions.
You know, I'm hearing this tossed around as a talking point for this "movement", but I really wonder how true this actually is. I'm not an accountant or tax lawyer, but my understanding is that in Canada, these so called loopholes don't really exist to the same extent.
The other question is what sort of chilling effect it would have on industry to basically impose additional taxes (closing means of reducing tax exposure is effectivly increasing taxes for those businesses). I get the sense people think companies exist in a vaccum. We live in a global economy these days. If it becomes too expensive to operate in Canada, what's stopping companies from moving where they can find cheaper labour and lower operating costs? Obviously this is already happening, but it's not like you can magically start charging more taxes and then require companies to stay put. We are being underbid by emerging economies and low skilled work that pays well is really a thing of the past. Adapt, or starve.
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No one has yet to explain how this is Wall Street, or any other corporations fault. They are smart business people, taking advantage of every rule they can to maximize their profits. If they weren't they would have their shareholders to answer to.
So to echo CC's statements, they should be in front of the White House, not the NYSE.
Well, protesting at Wall Street carries a certain symbolic meaning. Certainly more than protesting a random hipster island in Calgary.
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A business exploiting tax benefits to bring new jobs or keep jobs here as opposed to overseas is great. A corporation employing a huge tax department, lobbying government for tax breaks, creating shelters, etc. to avoid millions/billions in US taxes, not so great. I'm pretty sure if you asked most of the #OWS crowd, they're looking to curtail the latter, not the former.
Regarding your back scratching, I agree, this will never/ever go away. However, regulations/rules can be put in place/changed so that this kind of thing is harder to do and/or, against the law. Simply stating that this kind of thing is never going to go away doesn't mean people protesting against it are wrong to do so, silly to do so, hippies for doing so.
Explain the difference to me. All I can see different there is the result, job creation/retention. The second part is not different from the first. Both are utilizing the current rules and laws to their maximum benefit. What's wrong with employing a huge tax department? What's wrong with lobbying for tax breaks? What's wrong with creating legal entities that act as tax shelters?
If all of these things are done within the law and applicable accounting rules where is a corporation doing anything wrong? It's GE's fault that they have good accountants and tax planning so as to lessen their tax burden?
The only way his statement was ironic is if people sitting in a park bitching about stuff was the reason we have those freedoms. I can't think of any case where a leaderless unfocused group of non-violent protesters caused freedom to break out in a country. That's certainly not how Canadians got all those great rights...
so people exercising freedom of speech should be forced to watch what goes on in banana republics? the proverbial "count your blessings" right?
Canada also never got those rights by capitalist exploitation either... as for the non-violent protesters not causing change? better check you history.
you might not agree with people protesting, but certainly, people have protested and marched for things many others don't consider as being that important. nor agreeable
Last edited by oldschoolcalgary; 10-13-2011 at 06:43 PM.
Here is the Lead Now mass e-letter to update what's happening in the States:
Dear friends,
At 7AM tomorrow morning, a Canadian company, Brookfield Asset Management, is threatening to evict Occupy Wall Street from Zuccotti Park in New York. We need your help right now to stop Brookfield from shutting down the beating heart of a new global movement.
Zuccoti Park is the birthplace of the Occupy movement that has swept across the United States, and starts in Canada this Saturday. This new movement is spreading like wildfire because it powerfully speaks for economic justice and the need to reclaim our democracies.
Brookfield owns Zuccotti Park and wants to evict the participants to “clean” the park. Worse, they are threatening to impose new rules that will prevent the participants from bringing sleeping bags or tarps back into the park, effectively ending the occupation.
The New York police have said that they can only evict the participants if Brookfield labels them trespassers. Mayor Bloomberg has promised to order the police to clear the park once that happens. We need a massive Canadian outcry right now. Send a message directly to Brookfield’s executives demanding that they respect democratic rights:
Tria Donaldson, Leadnow’s communication coordinator, will be in Zuccotti Park tomorrow morning at 6AM to join a non-violent defense against the eviction -- and making sure that the Canadian press covering the story know just how many Canadians have spoken up to oppose Brookfield’s action.
“Cleaning” has been used over and over as a pretense to shut down peaceful occupations -- already this year it was used to evict protesters from the Wisconsin state house, and New York Mayor Bloomberg himself used it to shut down a peaceable demonstration against budget cuts. We can’t let it happen again.
Brookfield and Mayor Bloomberg are expecting an outcry in the US, they are not expecting a massive public outcry in Canada. This is a Canadian company. As Canadians, we have a special responsibility to tell Brookfield’s leadership not to dare interfere with the democratic rights of our southern neighbours.
Let’s show our American friends that we’ve got their back. Occupy Wall Street is about challenging the power of the richest 1%, and defending the economic and democratic rights of everyone else. Don’t let our 1% bail out America’s 1%. We need your help to send a message to Brookfield’s executives here in Canada, right now:
Leadnow.ca is an independent community that brings Canadians together to hold government accountable, deepen our democracy and take action for the common good.
Got the email this afternoon regarding the protests on Saturday out front of Bankers Hall. What I don’t get is why they are doing it on Saturday, if you’re going to do it why not on a weekday when people are actually working? Oh well I work for an investment bank and will be in the office on Saturday. Come at me Bro.
Explain the difference to me. All I can see different there is the result, job creation/retention. The second part is not different from the first. Both are utilizing the current rules and laws to their maximum benefit. What's wrong with employing a huge tax department? What's wrong with lobbying for tax breaks? What's wrong with creating legal entities that act as tax shelters?
If all of these things are done within the law and applicable accounting rules where is a corporation doing anything wrong? It's GE's fault that they have good accountants and tax planning so as to lessen their tax burden?
There is nothing wrong with it. But there is something wrong with a government that can be manipulated to easy by these big companies, while at the same time ignoring the plight of the smaller company.
Here is the Lead Now mass e-letter to update what's happening in the States:
Dear friends,
At 7AM tomorrow morning, a Canadian company, Brookfield Asset Management, is threatening to evict Occupy Wall Street from Zuccotti Park in New York. We need your help right now to stop Brookfield from shutting down the beating heart of a new global movement.
Zuccoti Park is the birthplace of the Occupy movement that has swept across the United States, and starts in Canada this Saturday. This new movement is spreading like wildfire because it powerfully speaks for economic justice and the need to reclaim our democracies.
Brookfield owns Zuccotti Park and wants to evict the participants to “clean” the park. Worse, they are threatening to impose new rules that will prevent the participants from bringing sleeping bags or tarps back into the park, effectively ending the occupation.
The New York police have said that they can only evict the participants if Brookfield labels them trespassers. Mayor Bloomberg has promised to order the police to clear the park once that happens. We need a massive Canadian outcry right now. Send a message directly to Brookfield’s executives demanding that they respect democratic rights:
Tria Donaldson, Leadnow’s communication coordinator, will be in Zuccotti Park tomorrow morning at 6AM to join a non-violent defense against the eviction -- and making sure that the Canadian press covering the story know just how many Canadians have spoken up to oppose Brookfield’s action.
“Cleaning” has been used over and over as a pretense to shut down peaceful occupations -- already this year it was used to evict protesters from the Wisconsin state house, and New York Mayor Bloomberg himself used it to shut down a peaceable demonstration against budget cuts. We can’t let it happen again.
Brookfield and Mayor Bloomberg are expecting an outcry in the US, they are not expecting a massive public outcry in Canada. This is a Canadian company. As Canadians, we have a special responsibility to tell Brookfield’s leadership not to dare interfere with the democratic rights of our southern neighbours.
Let’s show our American friends that we’ve got their back. Occupy Wall Street is about challenging the power of the richest 1%, and defending the economic and democratic rights of everyone else. Don’t let our 1% bail out America’s 1%. We need your help to send a message to Brookfield’s executives here in Canada, right now:
Leadnow.ca is an independent community that brings Canadians together to hold government accountable, deepen our democracy and take action for the common good.
First, what's up with the bold? Were you going for a stripe pattern like in a baseball outfield? If so, well done.
Second, that letter has done a great job of being factually inaccurate. Brookfield will not be imposing new rules, they'll simply be enforcing rules that they've allowed to be broken for nearly a month. The rules for that park always prohibited the majority of the activities taking place, the fact that they've been allowed as long as they have been is actually pretty surprising.
First, what's up with the bold? Were you going for a stripe pattern like in a baseball outfield? If so, well done.
Second, that letter has done a great job of being factually inaccurate. Brookfield will not be imposing new rules, they'll simply be enforcing rules that they've allowed to be broken for nearly a month. The rules for that park always prohibited the majority of the activities taking place, the fact that they've been allowed as long as they have been is actually pretty surprising.
Sure, they can use the cleaning excuse. But the PR lashing they're going to receive is a different story. Technicalities and rule enforcement aside, the optics of the whole thing just do not look good. Maybe they're actually worried these people won't leave?
Sure, they can use the cleaning excuse. But the PR lashing they're going to receive is a different story. Technicalities and rule enforcement aside, the optics of the whole thing just do not look good. Maybe they're actually worried these people won't leave?
PR lashing? From where? Anonymous? This protest really hasn't caught on in the mainstream in any meaningful fashion. Sure there will be fringe groups that call for boycotts etc. but I don't see much else happening. Not to mention the fact that most people don't even know what Brookfield does.
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Here is the Lead Now mass e-letter to update what's happening in the States:
Dear friends,
At 7AM tomorrow morning, a Canadian company, Brookfield Asset Management, is threatening to evict Occupy Wall Street from Zuccotti Park in New York. We need your help right now to stop Brookfield from shutting down the beating heart of a new global movement.
Zuccoti Park is the birthplace of the Occupy movement that has swept across the United States, and starts in Canada this Saturday. This new movement is spreading like wildfire because it powerfully speaks for economic justice and the need to reclaim our democracies.
Brookfield owns Zuccotti Park and wants to evict the participants to “clean” the park. Worse, they are threatening to impose new rules that will prevent the participants from bringing sleeping bags or tarps back into the park, effectively ending the occupation.
I get a laugh how these protesters have ZERO respect for property rights but figure it's still all right to accuse the LEGAL OWNERS OF THE PARK THEY'RE OCCUPYING of not respecting democracy.
Can they really be this clueless?
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First, what's up with the bold? Were you going for a stripe pattern like in a baseball outfield? If so, well done.
Second, that letter has done a great job of being factually inaccurate. Brookfield will not be imposing new rules, they'll simply be enforcing rules that they've allowed to be broken for nearly a month. The rules for that park always prohibited the majority of the activities taking place, the fact that they've been allowed as long as they have been is actually pretty surprising.
I never wrote it. I'm passing it on as requested.
Who owns the "property" in a Democracy Longsuffering?
