Occupy Calgary/Do Not Merge

[valo403]

Originally Posted by jammies

Obviously it's easier to be against something than to come up with a detailed plan as to how to fix it. I have some ideas, but is this really the venue for such a discussion? My point is more along the way that not all is as well in this country as the learned elders think it is.

Why wouldn't it be?

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by jammies

Obviously it's easier to be against something than to come up with a detailed plan as to how to fix it. I have some ideas, but is this really the venue for such a discussion? My point is more along the way that not all is as well in this country as the learned elders think it is.

You brought it up, not me. And this is a forum for discussion, so why not. I'd actually be very interested in hearing ideas on how to improve the existing situation from you/everyone. Maybe start a new thread if you don't want to clutter up this one.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by valo403

Well you touched on a point and I wanted to discuss it. You could take this opportunity to expand on it, or you could call it a straw man and walk away. Choice is yours. If that's not the point you wanted to make then please correct me, but that's how it reads to me.

As I said about the native reserves, I'm sure it is a point of discussion, but not one calculated to do anything but derail the thread. Is it important to occupycalgary what I think should be done about leveling the legal system, if in fact that is possible?

For one thing, I'm pretty sure all the lawyers here (of which there are more than a few, as the lawyerly profession lends itself to plenty of time during the day to browse the web, apparently) would be up in arms over any suggestions I might make that would impinge upon their ability to charge what the market will bear to the highest bidder. And the volume of verbiage an angry lawyer can conjure up is enough to daunt the bravest of us.

PS: We can certainly start threads about any subjects that interest. I'm not averse to discussion, just not necessarily here unless it can be related back to the topic at hand.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by jammies

As I said about the native reserves, I'm sure it is a point of discussion, but not one calculated to do anything but derail the thread. Is it important to the occupycalgary what I think should be done about leveling the legal system, if in fact that is possible?

For one thing, I'm pretty sure all the lawyers here (of which there are more than a few, as the lawyerly profession lends itself to plenty of time during the day to browse the web, apparently) would be up in arms over any suggestions I might make that would impinge upon their ability to charge what the market will bear to the highest bidder. And the volume of verbiage an angry lawyer can conjure up is enough to daunt the bravest of us.

I don't know, is it? Sort of sums up one of the issues this whole movement is facing, what the hell are the issues you want to discuss? Makes it even more difficult when you bring them up and an attempt to have a discussion on two of them is met with 'this isn't the venue'.

And don't pretend to know what anyone in the legal profession thinks about legal reform. There's a very strong movement towards doing away with the billable hour structure and a number of other relatively loud voices calling for reform in other realms. I imagine if you'd actually engage in the conversation you'd be surprised by what you hear.

Saw your PS: I don't know that the legal reform question warrants it's own thread, maybe it does, but I think if the occupy movement is going to be so broad based this thread would make sense for discussing a broad base of issues.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by jammies

I want extreme punitive measures against those who defy the law for their personal gain under the cloak of "sharp business practice". I want intellectual property laws which are slanted towards encouraging creativity rather than rewarding the proprietors of content whose originators are long dead, or whose "property" is nothing but words about an obvious process. I want sustained governmental pressure against regimes like China's that care nothing for human rights, regardless of what that might do to trade with such regimes. I want the end of the apartheid-like system of reserves for Natives. I want unrestricted freedom of speech. I want privacy rights for the individual to trump the right of corporations to retain, obtain, and analyze personal data. I want the legal system to be impartial and not about who can afford the best lawyer. And that's just the start.

There's many, many things that I want. Getting together with people that also want things, whether they be sensible things as I see them - or not - is a worthwhile thing even if all it does is signal that people are discontent and are starting to care enough about being discontented to organize. I don't deny that we live in a place that the rest of the world envies, but it didn't get that way by listening to those who felt that the status quo was just fine as it was, and it won't stay that way by sitting around grumbling at those ungrateful kids who just don't know when they've got it good.

Seriously, listen to yourselves. The bulk of you sound just like any other group of conservative elders who moan and gripe that "in my day, a little elbow grease and a chipper attitude was enough to solve any problem, by Gad!" It's easy to sit back and be cynical and to tell yourself that human nature is unchangeable, but not at all as easy to look at yourself and wonder if it's just you that is now impervious to change.

So basically, you want Utopia? Good luck with that.

At the end of the day, this sounds like a bunch a have-nots, envious of the haves. If you were pulling down 6 figures, had your house paid for, and under no financial strain, would you really care about any of this? Likely not.

The have-nots that seems to be the center of this movement, seem to think successful rich people just fell into their wealth. Sure there is some family or inherited wealth out there, but in most cases, these people are self made.

The richest guy I personally know (personal net worth of about $60 million would be conservative in my estimation, his company is worth about $150 million), is the hardest working guy I have met in my life, and will be lucky to make 60 due to his work ethic, he is 52 now. He is 14-16 hours a day, 6 days a week, and takes Sunday for his family, and a month during the year away with them. And even at that his Sundays are usually spent volunteering or donating time, with family in tow to various local charities.

The guy started from a nothing, little grubby business, to massive company. He has always stated his motivation was watching the bailiffs remove all the furniture from their home when he was a kid, and vowing to never be in that position with his family. Almost an OCD like compulsion to succeed, and he is up front about his flaws. I have seen the guy unclog an overflowed toilet in a $2000 suit, because his employees were too busy at the time. The guy just gets it.

Even though, he donates more money time and money to charitable causes in a year, than most people will earn in 5, he doesn't owe anyone a nickel. His blood, sweat and tears made him what he is, nothing less, nothing more. And even if he was a greedy a-hole, he has that right. He earned that right, and you, are not entitled to one penny unless you are under his employ. I am sure he exploits the tax system to the max, and has some back door deals here and there, all these guys do, of course they do. However, I am sure the 400 + people he employs, couldn't give a flying you-know-what as long as their pay cheques clear.

The hurdles to become 'that' guy, are no different today, than they were 25 years ago when he got his start. In fact, the cost to borrow for a business is lower than it has ever been, and there are more programs available as well. Some people just want it more and are willing to sacrifice more than others. And some people are just willing to go play extreme frisbee in the park and smoke a joint because they are not. They blame their lack of accountability and motivation on 'the man', when sometimes the mirror is where they should really be looking.

/oldmanyellingatcloud

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by jammies

Obviously it's easier to be against something than to come up with a detailed plan as to how to fix it. I have some ideas, but is this really the venue for such a discussion? My point is more along the way that not all is as well in this country as the learned elders think it is.

I think it's fair that protesters offer more than complaints, otherwise it's meaningless whining.

It's like saying the minimum wage should be $20 (to use an example), or saying that the oilsands shouldn't be developed.

You can't say that minimum wage should be $20 an hour if you can't present a plan that would make it practical without destroying small business or bankrupting governments. Salaries don't rise in isolation obviously.

Similarly, you can't say 'Don't develop the oilsands' to Albertans until/unless you can explain how you'll replace the billions of dollars pumping into the Alberta economy (and Treasury) associated with the development of those resources. "Leave it in ground and forego the economic benefits of that resource" doesn't cut it somehow.

Problems are easy to identify. Answers are what we require.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Answers are what we require.

I disagree, what is required more than answers is identifying the important questions and discussing them (ironic as that may seem that I in particular am saying that). The world is full of answers and people with certainties; there is a dearth of people who question.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by pylon

At the end of the day, this sounds like a bunch a have-nots, envious of the haves. If you were pulling down 6 figures, had your house paid for, and under no financial strain, would you really care about any of this? Likely not. [/I]

I make enough money working as my own boss that, for example, I can take the afternoon off to argue on the interwebz if I feel like it, and I live pretty well besides. I'm definitely no have-not. I'm sorry if that conflicts with your idea that everything relates back to money, but there it is.

[shermanator]

Saw this on Facebook. Thought it was rather appropriate...

[4X4]

Originally Posted by jammies

I want extreme punitive measures against those who defy the law for their personal gain under the cloak of "sharp business practice". I want intellectual property laws which are slanted towards encouraging creativity rather than rewarding the proprietors of content whose originators are long dead, or whose "property" is nothing but words about an obvious process. I want sustained governmental pressure against regimes like China's that care nothing for human rights, regardless of what that might do to trade with such regimes. I want the end of the apartheid-like system of reserves for Natives. I want unrestricted freedom of speech. I want privacy rights for the individual to trump the right of corporations to retain, obtain, and analyze personal data. I want the legal system to be impartial and not about who can afford the best lawyer. And that's just the start.

There's many, many things that I want. Getting together with people that also want things, whether they be sensible things as I see them - or not - is a worthwhile thing even if all it does is signal that people are discontent and are starting to care enough about being discontented to organize. I don't deny that we live in a place that the rest of the world envies, but it didn't get that way by listening to those who felt that the status quo was just fine as it was, and it won't stay that way by sitting around grumbling at those ungrateful kids who just don't know when they've got it good.

Great. Going and hanging out on the island all day is certainly going to "raise awareness" of all of that, and it might even magically accomplish all of that.

Originally Posted by jammies

Seriously, listen to yourselves. The bulk of you sound just like any other group of conservative elders who moan and gripe that "in my day, a little elbow grease and a chipper attitude was enough to solve any problem, by Gad!" It's easy to sit back and be cynical and to tell yourself that human nature is unchangeable, but not at all as easy to look at yourself and wonder if it's just you that is now impervious to change.

Seriously listen to yourself. You've got all these gripes about the way things are, but your only contribution to fixing it is to hang out on an island all day?
Call me old and crotchety all you want, but bitching and commiserating in a little hippie dance never solved a damn thing, so how about actually doing something with your time, if there's so much that needs repair?

Pick your battle, and go for it. It's the governemnt that's pissing you off? Go run for office and change it. The law industry is your source of scorn? Are you a lawyer? Go get your degree and change things.

And please don't tell me I'm crazy for saying that you really need to actually work to achieve change.

[woob]

Originally Posted by pylon

Even though, he donates more money time and money to charitable causes in a year, than most people will earn in 5, he doesn't owe anyone a nickel. His blood, sweat and tears made him what he is, nothing less, nothing more. And even if he was a greedy a-hole, he has that right. He earned that right, and you, are not entitled to one penny unless you are under his employ. I am sure he exploits the tax system to the max, and has some back door deals here and there, all these guys do, of course they do. However, I am sure the 400 + people he employs, couldn't give a flying you-know-what as long as their pay cheques clear.

I believe one of the items suggested by this movement is to get government to change the taxation system/rules/regulations/etc. that enable a guy like this to exploit the tax system. I also believe one of the items suggested by this movement is to remove corporate dollars from politics that may have enabled a guy like this to make a back room deal, if that is what you are possibly referring to.

So, in that case, as a member of society who pays taxes, works, and all that fun member of society stuff, I absolutely have a right to one penny of his if he is gaming the tax system and making back room deals to avoid paying the taxes and whatever else that he and his business should be paying. I don't care one iota if he polished his own poop in the process of getting to where he is today.

Edit to add: By saying I have a right to a penny from him, I mean that by being a member of a country/society that collects taxes/fees/whatever and that if he's gaming the system to avoid paying all those taxes/fees/whatever, then my country/society has a right to a penny from him, and as a result so do I.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Seriously listen to yourself. You've got all these gripes about the way things are, but your only contribution to fixing it is to hang out on an island all day?

Yes, that's right. And I expect by Sunday the magic fixin' fairy will wave her wand, and we'll then live in a land of gumdrop trees and chocolate rivers. I'll be really kicking myself for not thinking of this whole "protest" thing earlier.

[woob]

Originally Posted by pylon

/oldmanyellingatcloud

[Yasa]

Originally Posted by shermanator

Saw this on Facebook. Thought it was rather appropriate...

Large image

Spoiler!

[pylon]

Originally Posted by woob

I believe one of the items suggested by this movement is to get government to change the taxation system/rules/regulations/etc. that enable a guy like this to exploit the tax system. I also believe one of the items suggested by this movement is to remove corporate dollars from politics that may have enabled a guy like this to make a back room deal, if that is what you are possibly referring to.

So, in that case, as a member of society who pays taxes, works, and all that fun member of society stuff, I absolutely have a right to one penny of his if he is gaming the tax system and making back room deals to avoid paying the taxes and whatever else that he and his business should be paying. I don't care one iota if he polished his own poop in the process of getting to where he is today.

Edit to add: By saying I have a right to a penny from him, I mean that by being a member of a country/society that collects taxes/fees/whatever and that if he's gaming the system to avoid paying all those taxes/fees/whatever, then my country/society has a right to a penny from him, and as a result so do I.

If you exploit the tax system within the rules of the tax system for maximum benefit, what the heck is the problem? I exploit my personal tax return every year, to maximize my refund, and dump the entire refund towards my mortgage every year. I know some people are content to go to HR block and get the absolute minimum refund they are eligible for so they can have the cash that day to go on a bender, but I want every penny back I qualify for. How is a business exploiting taxation rules any different?

How is a business/owner getting a tax break for bringing X #'s of jobs to a community, or city or whatever to the table bad for you or anyone? Especially if they are bringing a couple hundred jobs to the table, instead of going overseas? Only a stupid business person wouldn't explore those avenues/options. I would much prefer a super rich guy getting a little super richer, and keeping the jobs local, than the alternative of it evaporating forever to some foreign country.

There is a ton of back scratching in big business, and unless you make every single business interaction, public record, and have every single conversation recorded, and witnessed by a government official, it will never, ever, ever in the history of ever go away. Period.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by jammies

I disagree, what is required more than answers is identifying the important questions and discussing them (ironic as that may seem that I in particular am saying that). The world is full of answers and people with certainties; there is a dearth of people who question.

Well, we disagree then. I can't see how doing nothing but complaining that "I want a larger salary" or "I want affordable housing" or "Life isn't fair" is an impetus for change.

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by pylon

If you exploit the tax system within the rules of the tax system for maximum benefit, what the heck is the problem?.....

The problem is that there may be fundamental problems within the tax systems as a whole. I'm not saying there are problems or not, but one of the goals of this occupy movement is to examine the status quo.

Truthfully, I don't care one way or the other about the occupy whatever movement. I work hard and live a modest lifestyle yet still feel the pinch from debt. I can identify with some of the messages floating around. This isn't about have nots being jealous of haves.

[Yasa]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Well, we disagree then. I can't see how doing nothing but complaining that "I want a larger salary" or "I want affordable housing" or "Life isn't fair" is an impetus for change.

I didn't interpret those messages from these protests. I took it as people demanding better care and control over the public money. Like a physical protest with the documentary Inside Job in mind. Less lobbying influence and more responsibility/human interests involved in running a country.

But really, what's the big deal? Complaining about their protest either on a forum or at the bar with your friends is just a form of holding your own protest to theirs in a similar manner. The best possible scenerio for this thing is the people responsible for this recent economic disaster get some sort of punishment, and potential reforms to the current system. The worst case (barring a violent riot) is that a bunch of people give up and go home.

Why is challenging the status quo bad? Because it's happening in a first world country, or because you don't agree with the method?

[woob]

Originally Posted by pylon

If you exploit the tax system within the rules of the tax system for maximum benefit, what the heck is the problem? I exploit my personal tax return every year, to maximize my refund, and dump the entire refund towards my mortgage every year. I know some people are content to go to HR block and get the absolute minimum refund they are eligible for so they can have the cash that day to go on a bender, but I want every penny back I qualify for. How is a business exploiting taxation rules any different?

How is a business/owner getting a tax break for bringing X #'s of jobs to a community, or city or whatever to the table bad for you or anyone? Especially if they are bringing a couple hundred jobs to the table, instead of going overseas? Only a stupid business person wouldn't explore those avenues/options. I would much prefer a super rich guy getting a little super richer, and keeping the jobs local, than the alternative of it evaporating forever to some foreign country.

There is a ton of back scratching in big business, and unless you make every single business interaction, public record, and have every single conversation recorded, and witnessed by a government official, it will never, ever, ever in the history of ever go away. Period.

A business exploiting tax benefits to bring new jobs or keep jobs here as opposed to overseas is great. A corporation employing a huge tax department, lobbying government for tax breaks, creating shelters, etc. to avoid millions/billions in US taxes, not so great. I'm pretty sure if you asked most of the #OWS crowd, they're looking to curtail the latter, not the former.

Regarding your back scratching, I agree, this will never/ever go away. However, regulations/rules can be put in place/changed so that this kind of thing is harder to do and/or, against the law. Simply stating that this kind of thing is never going to go away doesn't mean people protesting against it are wrong to do so, silly to do so, hippies for doing so.

[CaptainCrunch]

Soooo then why are they occupying wall street again? By your definition the problem is with the U.S. government not with the un regulated actions of Wall Street Firms.

They need to go and park outside of the white house