Calgary Public Transit - Discussion

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Question about boring vs. cut and cover.

With cut and cover, don't we have to worry more about utilities? Whereas with boring we could just go under all of them?

Technically I suppose that's correct, but Boring brings up a whole bunch of other, bigger issues than that.

[Ironhorse]

Originally Posted by Bunk

The NE line is designed in a very anti-urban configuration - it's not integrated at all into the fabric of the street like more contemporary examples of LRT. It can be done much more successfully.

Not until we have much more successful driver's training. There too many ######s on the road here.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Personally, I see the Nose Creek alignment as having a large issue, that it would require another completely separate downtown ROW. The money saved by connecting to the (then) existing SELRT LOW up 2nd St SE would help offset the additional cost of constructing the line up centre street.

It wouldn't have it's own downtown ROW, it would share with the NE line (thus reducing the final capacity of each to less than half of what it would be otherwise).

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Bunk

I would say centre street is the most likely alignment based on what I observed at the various open houses.

I think the most likely outcome in terms of its grade is an at grade urban lrt. A dedicated ROW like these examples below:

It's obvious trade off is operational speed vs. cost. This would be by far the least costliest and would turn centre street into a transit-focused street. But it does present the opportunity to really use the LRT as a catalyst for intensification along the corridor. I could however see the first station in Crescent Heights be underground, because if it's an extention on the SELRT it would exit downtown underground, under the river and then up the hill toward Centre.

There are certainly good examples of urban LRT, however, I have a few problems with it being used on the North Central route.

- The capacity and operational speed limitations presented by urban at-grade LRT would make it so that the flexibility in those departments that are provided by the downtown tunnel aren't leveraged.

- If grade separation is needed from downtown to somewhere around 16th Avenue, that portion is also not leveraged. I.E., if you're going underground (and pretty far underground at that) for this portion - you may as well maximize the benefits provided by that up until Beddington

- There's still plenty of development and transit orientation to be achieved though a grade-separated route. 16th/Centre could be a several-square-blocks-large hub, as would other stations along the line. Centre Street already has half the battle won anyway - it and its surrounding streets are on a grid.

- With an urban LRT format, block lengths can limit train lengths and capacity. That's all well and good if the north central route wouldn't be twinned with the SELRT line (and really, that assumption has to be made because no other option makes sense), thus limiting that line's capacity as well. The SE line is projected to grow into one of the busier lines, rivaling the south line and need 5 car trains eventually.

- The thing that's best about a subway route is that a more local, lower capacity option for the surface (BRT or streetcar) is still possible to implement along Centre Street if you want to achieve the urban form offered by urban at-grade LRT.

[frinkprof]

With the northeast LRT extension to Saddletown and Martindale in operation next year, there will be some information sessions regarding how the feeder bus routes will change.

• Wednesday, 2011 September 21 5:00pm to 9:00pm
  Taradale School
  170 Taravista Drive NE
• Tuesday, 2011 September 27 5:00pm to 9:00pm
  Crossing Park School
  500 Martindale Boulevard NE
• Thursday, 2011 September 29 3:00pm to 7:00pm
  McKnight – Westwinds Station
  3910 54 Avenue NE
• Friday, 2011 September 30 3:00pm to 7:00pm
  McKnight – Westwinds Station
  3910 54 Avenue NE

http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/n...info_2011.html

[SebC]

Those stations to me are precisely what's wrong with the LRT expansion philosophy in Calgary. Who does the Saddletown station benefit, apart from people who live in Saddletown? We should be working on SE/NC line, 8th Ave Subway before we build line segments that will have relatively low ridership (unless, of course, those Saddletown residents are paying for their station primarily by themselves, but they're not).

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by SebC

Those stations to me are precisely what's wrong with the LRT expansion philosophy in Calgary. Who does the Saddletown station benefit, apart from people who live in Saddletown? We should be working on SE/NC line, 8th Ave Subway before we build line segments that will have relatively low ridership (unless, of course, those Saddletown residents are paying for their station primarily by themselves, but they're not).

This city is heavily criticized for not planning ahead and doing things when they should've been done earlier. The NE region of the city is going to heavily expand this decade. While Saddletown station isn't needed now, it's probably going to be needed in the near future to support residence beyond Saddleridge (which would warrant future NE Line expansion). So it's nice to see things like this being built ahead of time. Besides, it's not like this project is holding back the SE Line or 8th Ave Subway.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Joborule

This city is heavily criticized for not planning ahead and doing things when they should've been done earlier. The NE region of the city is going to heavily expand this decade. While Saddletown station isn't needed now, it's probably going to be needed in the near future to support residence beyond Saddleridge (which would warrant future NE Line expansion). So it's nice to see things like this being built ahead of time. Besides, it's not like this project is holding back the SE Line or 8th Ave Subway.

Building things ahead of time is nice, but not at the expense of things that are late. Everything competes for the same funding.

[frinkprof]

Transit drivers rack up overtime caused by LRT breakdowns

Labour costs contribute to budget shorftall


By Jason Markusoff, Calgary Herald; With files from Richard Cuthbertson, Calgary Herald.


Besides the added waiting and travel times for passengers, the recent spate of unplanned LRT system shutdowns has another cost: unbudgeted overtime pay.

A council report for this week's finance committee listed "shortterm bus service in response to LRT service interruptions" as one of three causes for the $2.7-million shortfall in the transit budget for the first half of 2011, along with lower riderships and overtime triggered by bad weather.


That doesn't cover July, August and September, when the C-Train system's aging electrical works and cars broke down more regularly.

[...]

On Tuesday, when broken wires caused a daylong shutdown on the northeast leg, the city spent up to $15,000 on staff overtime pay, for 28 shuttle buses subbing for the trains.


There's a ripple effect, too. If trains go kaput during rush hour - when the bus fleet is going full-bore - dispatchers will initially redirect buses from other routes to ferry the passengers whose train isn't' coming.


For most unplanned disruptions, the city asks drivers headed back to the garage after their shifts to volunteer their service, for overtime pay.


One of the fixes Wong's system is pursuing for the breakdown problems is to add more crossover tracks, so that one broken train or overhead wire doesn't cripple huge stretches of track.


[...]


Such upgrades are coming in as stations expand with four-car platforms, but it will take another two years to be fully in place.


Meanwhile, the mayor is proposing a new transits users' advisory board to raise problems and seek improvements for customers.

[...]

Link to full article

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

One of the fixes Wong's system is pursuing for the breakdown problems is to add more crossover tracks, so that one broken train or overhead wire doesn't cripple huge stretches of track.

I have often thought that this would be beneficial. From my casual and uneducated observations, it looks like there is usually a crossover of some sort on either side of the station - usually on the inbound side. Even putting a crossover on each side of the station would enable single tracking over a shorter distance.

At the very least, it would reduce the length of the inactive segment of track and somewhat limit the disruptions. Installing these would be an added cost, plus a little tricky while keeping the trains running. Weekend closures, I'm guessing.

Edit: On a related note, what seems to be causing the most delays: broken trains or broken wires? It seems like wires are happening more frequently and are causing the most trouble. Broken trains probably get shunted out of the way and the system carries on.

[Jimmy Stang]

^ Has the West LRT been designed to have more crossovers? If not, they should really put them in now as it will be the cheapest and least disruptive option.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

^ Has the West LRT been designed to have more crossovers? If not, they should really put them in now as it will be the cheapest and least disruptive option.

There's quite a few.

There's scissor crossovers at:

Directly east of Sunalta Station

Directly east of the tunnel portal at 33rd Street

East of the 69th Street Tunnel


There's one-way crossovers at:

East of 45th Street Station

East of Sarcee Trail guideway

-----

This should make it so that any localized single-direction disruption only shuts down one station at a time.

-----

For the overall system, I'm not sure if mechanical delays are any more due to vehicles than they are due to tracks/wires/switches, etc. Aside from the older vehicles being replaced, and some issues being resolved with the very new vehicles (false alarm emergency buttons, other bugs), a lot of the track and way and electrical system problems are being fixed on an ongoing basis.

This is why there are so many weekend closures - especially on long weekends during the warmer months. A lot of this year's maintenance has been spent fixing issues that sprung up due to the horrible winter we had last year that also saw a lot of potholes and deformation in roads. Ballast between Chinook and Heritage Stations has been completely replaced, which took a month's worth of weekend closures. Some electrical problems have been fixed as well. Hopefully this winter takes less of a toll and next year some of the longer term maintenance issues can be resolved.

In addition, some of the electrical capacity issues are being fixed along with the four car train expansions. The substations are all being upgraded to handle four car trains whereas some sections of track struggled to handle three car trains. This should prevent the odd substation blowout that occurs, and also get rid of some of the ongoing "slow order" areas where the current systems are substandard. This includes the section between Sunnyside and SAIT, and either side of 39th Avenue Station.

[Jimmy Stang]

Thanks for the thorough response. I really appreciate the insight that you and others here are able to provide!

[Stay Golden]

I was visiting a friend recently in the NE and I couldn't believe how close the LTR is going in SaddleRidge it is crazy those people that bought in there before all this insaine city engineering began must be just irate. The tracks are 10 ft from their backyard fences. I couldn't believe it.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

I was visiting a friend recently in the NE and I couldn't believe how close the LTR is going in SaddleRidge it is crazy those people that bought in there before all this insaine city engineering began must be just irate. The tracks are 10 ft from their backyard fences. I couldn't believe it.

Exactly backwards.

The LRT right of way was reserved in the 1984 Saddleridge Area Structure Plan, before a single house was built or ounce of topsoil turned over.

Blame the developer and/or people that bought the properties without doing the research.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

I was visiting a friend recently in the NE and I couldn't believe how close the LTR is going in SaddleRidge it is crazy those people that bought in there before all this insaine city engineering began must be just irate. The tracks are 10 ft from their backyard fences. I couldn't believe it.

I was surprised when I saw some photos of that extension. Very close to the homes. On the other hand, I can only assume that the land was set aside for the LRT before any lots were sold, and that it was shown on developer maps, etc.

[ken0042]

Have a look along 52nd street SE. That patch of grass east of the road is the LRT right of way. Most people I talk to are not aware of in- in spite of the city putting up signs saying "The LRT will be going here eventually- so we don't want to hear any complaining..."

(Or words to that effect.)

[Rathji]

I think the biggest thing is that people don't realize just how prominent the LRT will really be. My mom lives almost adjacent to a proposed station on the SE leg (Ogden) and while she knows it will be a good thing, the extra noise will probably be annoying but only because it will be more frequent than the train noise that already exists.

[frinkprof]

The City Hall south platform re-opened for good today. The new interfaces with City Hall still require quite a bit of work, but this can continue while the platform is open.

For the 7th Avenue Refurbishment, this leaves:

- Extend Centre Street Station platform to 4 car length, should start up shortly and be a quicker job than every other station

- Finish 11th Street Station (Kerby Station) and remove 10th Street West Station.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

- Finish 11th Street Station (Kerby Station) and remove 10th Street West Station.

Are they still calling it Kerby Station? Even though the Kerby people didn't even want it named after them in the first place? Just call it "Mewata" as a nod to the history of the area and get on with it.