Maybe... there's been lots of times when I've been in a situation where I felt afraid because of a situation that has been associated with violence or whatever.
However I knew my fear was irrational because while the chances of something happening in that situation were higher than in broad daylight in the middle of the street or something (all things being equal), but I also understood that the overall chances of something happening were quite low due simply to statistics of incidents of violent crime.
So while I felt fear, I didn't transfer that to every white/black/tall/fat/conservative/male/female/canine individual(s) as a potential threat.
And I have had things happen to me that could be considered to have conditioned me to be more fearful of certain situations.
But I'm not a girl so it could be different, I was hoping to find someone solidly in agreement with Watson to explain it.
Is it justified fear? Or is it like being a helicopter parent that lives in fear of abductions and goes to great lengths to that end when their child is far more likely to be harmed by an accident or poison or some such.
I guess, though depends on that 1%, if it is even that high. If it was purely self preservation those same people shouldn't be anywhere near a car.
Oh, I'm not saying it's justified, in fact I think I go on from there. But you asked to explain and so I was explaining her points as best I could.
Always great to watch a bunch of men use sexist arguments to describe why sexism is a non-issue. Lets all go post in the hot women thread!
Always great to watch a poster call out the other posters in the thread for something and fail to actually give examples and contribute to the discussion at all. No really, I mean it.
The vast majority of sexual assaults on women are committed by people that the victims know. There's a good reason why many women are walking around scared. For what seems like a friend could just as easily be a criminal. Telling women to smarten up and get tougher is a typically male suggestion, that's what we would do. But we aren't women. We don't process stressful situations in the same way as them and we certainly don't process or are subjected to the sheer number of situations of victimization that women find themselves in. So here we are saying, "hey I'm a nice guy I'd never do that, quit being so sensitive!" without one iota of how women feel and how they've been conditioned to feel around men their whole lives.
Women have a box of acceptable activities they can engage in that is smaller than the "laws" of acceptable behaviour. Men do not. We can go out and get horsefaced drunk all the time, stagger home, and not blink about it. A woman can't. Because she'll become either a victim or she'll think she'll be a target.
And so who knows what that woman was thinking in the elevator. Why can't she just get on the elevator late at night and go to her room without being approached? Why can't she complain about that then? Why does she now need to apologize for being approached late at night on an elevator?
The debate needs to shift to, "wow, how are we perpetuating violence against women and making them feel insecure" instead of, "get thicker skin."
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Jesus, now we're perpetuating violence against women? That's a bit of a stretch. Sorry, but just because someone feels a certain way doesn't mean those feelings are rational.
Should the guy not have bothered taking the elevator at the same time as her? Maybe that would have made her feel more secure? Perhaps men and women should have separate elevators to prevent them feeling insecure?
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I think complaining about someone trying to hit on you in an elevator is trivializing sexism and violence against women. Dawkins could have been far more diplomatic, but he's not wrong.
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Watched the video. As has been mentioned in other posts - this is a society in which the guy has to make the first move... or nothing happens. You don't go on dates, you don't get laid - you have to be forward.
I kind of want to know her solution to the problem.
We should start an FB group for an international "stop approaching women week" and see what happens.
Should add, not trivializing her feelings, I just want to know what she thinks should happen instead.
Agree with everyone here saying skepchick needs to lighten up. She were approached for sex, she said no and he took no for an answer. It's a happy story really. Everyone acted in accordance with their desires, no one got hurt. What if that guy asking was someone she was really into? There's nothing creepy or wrong about putting yourself out there for sex or a date. That's pretty much the only way to do it.
Dan Savage, a sex columnist, talks about how he feels sorry for straight men a lot of the time when it comes to sex. Passive? Women won't like you. Show interest? Creepy. Like anything alternative? Gay. We have to walk a lot of lines.
I should note that statement only applies to sex and shouldn't be interpreted as straight men having it bad in general. We don't.
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The debate needs to shift to, "wow, how are we perpetuating violence against women and making them feel insecure" instead of, "get thicker skin."
Nobody here is perpetuating violence against women. There is a very small percentage of men who actually go out and try to rape or harm a woman.
What we have here is the effect of the feminist-left media (eg. National Post), that have to bring this stuff up constantly to keep it fresh in everyone's minds. With the way mass media sensationalizes domestic disturbance/rape/divorce/violence, this has had a negative effect on the female psyche in North America.
It sounds to me that the guy in the elevator was more proactive with his feelings of arousal than the lady was with her feelings of fear. He dealt with his feelings.
This lady seems to think others need to deal with her feelings of fear by changing their behaviour. I think she needs to accept that men do have and express feelings of sexual desire. If men avoid crude expressions of these desires when communicating there feelings to women it is acceptable behaviour.
If she doesn't feel comfortable around men at certain times or in certain circumstances she should avoid putting herself in those situations.
If she doesn't feel comfortable around men at certain times or in certain circumstances she should avoid putting herself in those situations.
I agree with the rest of your post, but in fairness to her, she didn't put herself in this situation - she was in the elevator first and he entered after her.
I agree with the rest of your post, but in fairness to her, she didn't put herself in this situation - she was in the elevator first and he entered after her.
As a woman, I find it kind of funny how like 2 minutes before her elevator story she claims not to speak for every women in regards to her reality but then proceeds to tell men not to speak to women on elevators because "she" does not like to feel like she is sexualized.
I do feel badly for men nowadays(and I am also a feminist btw) because really you are damned if you do damned if you don't. I think she blew the whole thing out of proportion, it is not like the man in question groped her, she did not mention him eyeing her boobs or butt, for all she knew he could of been interested in her thoughts on something or wanted to get to know her better (which I doubt but you never know). She had every right to say no(which she did) and it did not sound like the man kept pushing her to come to his room after the initial no ...so I say no harm no foul on the mans part.
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I like how, for once, skeptics are talking about a social issue without claiming that religion is the cause of the problem. Perhaps, if they dig a little deeper, the "community" gets a little larger, and things go on longer, they'll start to realize that many of the superficial issues that are brought up as evils of religion aren't caused by religion itself, but instead are issues that humans have with other humans. As a religions person AND a scientist, I have to say that the most damning thing that the recent surge of interest in skepticism and atheism has brought forward to me, is that religion hasn't been overly effective at "fixing" the ills of society. I find it interesting to see that to some, atheism isn't helping much either.
Chalk me up as a "skeptic" of skepticism and atheism gaining much traction in making the world a better place.
Please, I just wanted to point something out, not get into a pissing match disguised as an argument. Please understand that.
Skeptics rarely talk about religion while wearing their skeptic hats, unless it is to do with the evolution vs. creation debate. Surely many skeptics are also atheists and humanists, but religion is not a common topic in skeptic discussions.
this is a society in which the guy has to make the first move... or nothing happens. You don't go on dates, you don't get laid - you have to be forward.
I'm not sure that this is true - hasn't there been a lot of research that shows women often intiate and invite contact, through indirect means like eye contact, body language and flirting? They let men know that they are receptive to being approached? It could be many men are not very good at picking up on these signals.
Which means for all intents and purposes the man initiates. Learning hints are important for a man, I agree, but it's not really fair to say men should be able to pick up obtuse signals. If women really want to initiate, they have to be more direct.
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At least any guy now knows never to ask this woman out - ever.
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I kind of want to know her solution to the problem.
Her solution to the problem is that the guy should have been handsome and charming. Had he been handsome and charming, he wouldn't be viewed as a serial rapist. She'd probably feel quite flattered, even if she wasn't interested. As it is, he was likely just your average, awkward guy, thus one must conclude that he likely was a woman hating rapist.
I agree with the rest of your post, but in fairness to her, she didn't put herself in this situation - she was in the elevator first and he entered after her.
Yet . . . . . that's the same thing that happened in the Gretzky story I recited earlier.
He got into an elevator at the Westin, a woman got in after him, he then stepped out and waited for the next elevator. She went up alone. And then he went up alone.
This woman could have done the same.
Cowperson
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