Skepchick vs. Dawkins

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

A perfect example was 10 years ago I was in a city park reading a book.

A woman walked up to me and asked me to leave cause I was making her and her kids uncomfortable.

We were the only people in the park and I was there first but she felt intitled to ask me of this. I never even noticed them until she spoke to me and I was at least 20 yards from them but being a large scary looking man was enough.

I have never forgotten that feeling I had from that, it was so insulting and I felt so wronged. But she felt so comfortable and justified in her request that is what suprised me the most.

Can you elaborate on your story? I'm really interested in knowing how you handled this and the subsequent conversation.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

Can you elaborate on your story? I'm really interested in knowing how you handled this and the subsequent conversation.

Well, I know if it would have happened to me, I would have been so offended. I would have put my weiner away and went home.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

A perfect example was 10 years ago I was in a city park reading a book.

A woman walked up to me and asked me to leave cause I was making her and her kids uncomfortable.

We were the only people in the park and I was there first but she felt intitled to ask me of this. I never even noticed them until she spoke to me and I was at least 20 yards from them but being a large scary looking man was enough.

I have never forgotten that feeling I had from that, it was so insulting and I felt so wronged. But she felt so comfortable and justified in her request that is what suprised me the most.

I can be a real wise-ass from time to time and messing with idiots who make unreasonable requests of me is a great way to fill the gaps in my day with some entertainment, but I can honestly say someone requesting that of me would leave me absolutely speechless in the moment.

How did you deal with that?

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

It's simple really.

It is clear that she buys into the "all men are potential rapists" misandry propaganda that modern lesbi.......(ahem) feminists spout off on a regular basis.

In other words, it has no common sense to it whatsoever.

It's funny to me, ...because you just know that if it was a handsome alpha smooth talker with her in the elevator, not a damn thing would have come of this. Hell, she may have gotten laid.

Watson needs to get a grip on reality and grow up.

Back in the early 1990's, I was at the Westin and saw Wayne Gretzky get into an elevator alone and in the idle moments while the doors remained open, a young lady stepped in and joined him.

He immediately stepped out and took the next elevator alone.

In the incident under discussion, if she's harbouring the feelings she has, then the lady in question shouldn't be getting into elevators with men she's not familar with.

She had the option.

Otherwise, men and women hit on each other all the time. And it does work both ways.

Cowperson

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

I can be a real wise-ass from time to time and messing with idiots who make unreasonable requests of me is a great way to fill the gaps in my day with some entertainment, but I can honestly say someone requesting that of me would leave me absolutely speechless in the moment.

How did you deal with that?

I was speechless and for me that is saying something. I just said "I'm just reading a book" and held up the book.

She just gave a smirk and said "you are making me uneasy"

I then responded "unbelievable, I am jst reading a book in a park"

She just walked away from me with no interest in my opinion and went back to her kids.

I tried to go back to reading but I was so annoyed that I read the same paragraph over about 20 times cause I couldn't concentrate.

If I did get mad or try to push my opinion I felt it would only justify her opinion. It truly felt like a no win for me. So I got up and left got in my car and drove home and hugged my wife and ask her if I am a good person.
I felt like absolute crap about it. It was 10 years ago at least and I will never forget that moment. It kinda gave me a snapshot of how certain minorites must feel at times. I could not imagine a lifetime of it.

Of course there are so many more ways I imagined handling it but not one would probably prove to her she was wrong but would only make me feel better in the end

[Yasa]

She should know that it's not a mans fault when women get assaulted. It's because they dress so provocatively.

[SeeBass]

That is the term sexually assualted it has too many meanings.

If being grabbed by a person of the opposite sex is assault then I have been a victim too.
Does it mean being verbally attacked for not agreeing to sexual contact then again I have been a victim.
I have had women hit me too for breaking up with them, is that assualt? cause it means that I have cut them off from sex and now they are being violent.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, she alludes that a proposition like that within the confines of the situation (IE late at night, strange city, alone in an enclosed space) made her feel scared. I'm not sure how much of this is true and how much is to make her point, but it can be very hard for us guys to understand the fear a woman can have in situations like this.

Maybe... there's been lots of times when I've been in a situation where I felt afraid because of a situation that has been associated with violence or whatever.

However I knew my fear was irrational because while the chances of something happening in that situation were higher than in broad daylight in the middle of the street or something (all things being equal), but I also understood that the overall chances of something happening were quite low due simply to statistics of incidents of violent crime.

So while I felt fear, I didn't transfer that to every white/black/tall/fat/conservative/male/female/canine individual(s) as a potential threat.

And I have had things happen to me that could be considered to have conditioned me to be more fearful of certain situations.

But I'm not a girl so it could be different, I was hoping to find someone solidly in agreement with Watson to explain it.

Is it justified fear? Or is it like being a helicopter parent that lives in fear of abductions and goes to great lengths to that end when their child is far more likely to be harmed by an accident or poison or some such.

Originally Posted by calf

I think for the woman, it isn't so much that 99% of of the time nothing will happen, but moreso, what could happen the other 1% of the time - to me, it's a basic self-preservation mechanism. Most women I know won't walk around alone downtown after dark, even though odds are nothing will happen either. Most women I know also won't go to the hotel room of a stranger they just met just a few minutes ago either just in case, or, because they aren't sex objects. Might be an unfair insinuation, but it's rational.

I guess, though depends on that 1%, if it is even that high. If it was purely self preservation those same people shouldn't be anywhere near a car.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Back in the early 1990's, I was at the Westin and saw Wayne Gretzky get into an elevator alone and in the idle moments while the doors remained open, a young lady stepped in and joined him.

He immediately stepped out and took the next elevator alone.

In the incident under discussion, if she's harbouring the feelings she has, then the lady in question shouldn't be getting into elevators with men she's not familar with.

That's an interesting point and turns it around completely; men have had their lives completely ruined by accusations of sexual assault.

All kinds of stories like SeaBass' where men are assumed guilty, especially with respect to young girls.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by calf

I think for the woman, it isn't so much that 99% of of the time nothing will happen, but moreso, what could happen the other 1% of the time - to me, it's a basic self-preservation mechanism. Most women I know won't walk around alone downtown after dark, even though odds are nothing will happen either. Most women I know also won't go to the hotel room of a stranger they just met just a few minutes ago either just in case, or, because they aren't sex objects. Might be an unfair insinuation, but it's rational.

lets see I have been with my wife for 20 years.
She has left the house alone on average over twice a day that is over 14,000 times with no problem. Does that still equate to a 1% chance?

[SeeBass]

Smart move by Gretzky, never be alone with a women they may lie for money, it may not happen 99% of the time but that 1% chance...

Seems really unfair when one generalizes about a group doesn't it.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by photon

But I'm not a girl so it could be different, I was hoping to find someone solidly in agreement with Watson to explain it.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/

Lindsay Beyerstein has an excellent, restrained, and accurate summary — no divine yonis in evidence. Stephanie Svan has a depressing series of testimonials from women who have been abused (trigger warnings galore!); this is not a negligible problem here in the first world, and there are many women who have justified fears of being caught in situations that Jesper seems to find romantic. I particularly recommend the comment from Doubting Thomas, which will chill you to the bone.

A Letter to Professor Dawkins from Victims of Sexual Assault
http://almostdiamonds.blogspot.com/2...kins-from.html

At your request, we write to you to tell you what it is that you do not understand about elevators, invitations, and sexual assault. Who are we, and why are we in any position to tell you anything? We are atheists and skeptics, but more relevantly, we are victims of sexual assault.

Is too much being made of this? We still live in a world where women can't list their names in a phone book, and have to restrict access to their facebook accounts.

[tete]

I'm sorry, I can't see the original video by Watson since I'm at work, so I can't comment fully on her original posts, but I can make one comment as a woman:

Someone on my female-only board posted the link that Savvy posted about "Schroedinger's rapist" last week. Almost every response said "you know, I read this blog wanting to object to something that was said, but I can't. I do feel threatened and scared in situations where my partner is absolutely a-okay and doesn't get why I'm uncomfortable". Only a very small handful of women said that they didn't have this feeling. I too, am often not comfortable in situations where my husband would have no inkling of any threat or harm. I have never been attacked by a stranger (man or woman), yet I have these thoughts in the back of my head. Not sure why, to be honest.

I do get a bit uncomfortable when the words "Potential sexual assult" get thrown around, however. Sometimes I think it's over the top. To me it's a "potential threat" not assult. But that's just me.

[Cain]

I think it is one thing to have a lingering doubt or fear in your mind which makes you act cautiously, and another to then take that feeling and make it into much more...which is what calling it a "potential sexual assault" is doing. Everyone is fearful of certain situations, and often it is an unfair emotion as you know rationally that most likely nothing will come of it. I see no problem with this. I do see a problem with extending that fear and exaggerating what it is.

I watched the video. I didn't find it overly irritating. I find it egotistical of women to presume to know the intentions of a man when they ask something like this though. I am an introvert. I am not a charmer or a smooth talker. I am also very genuine and sincere if/when I ask a lady if she wants to grab a coffee or a drink. I am not necessarily looking further than that, though indeed I have likely "sexualized" her in that I have seen in her the potential to move into a relationship if everything else were to click. She will in return likely "sexualize" me and contemplate my offer along with other factors and then respond. The fact that Watson presumed the motives of the man asking her (in a polite way) to be sexual in nature is the hilarious part when she is campaigning against sexism and stereotypes.

I guess at the core, the issue that bothers me is not that women argue that they are sexualized by culture - they most definitely are, I will not argue that...it is that they extend that to their own personal sphere where it can be true, but certainly is not always. And frankly, if all they mean by sexualized is that they are looked at in a superficial way...well everyone does that to everyone. This is neither good nor evil, as your appearance is indeed a part of you. If that is where people stop their inspection of you - don't associate with them (and there are members of both sexes in this demographic), but it is ridiculous to demand that this process stops. Everyone does it, and both sexes participate equally.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by troutman

Should we only complain about bigger wrongs?

I think this is absolutely not what he intended either. Where is the wrong in this case? A man propositioned a lady (not necessarily for sex), she declined. Nothing else happened besides potentially an awkward, uncomfortable silence that followed.

I'm not seeing the foul that was committed here, and I'm not trying to be difficult either. The muslim world has real wrongs that should be addressed. The western world has real wrongs that should be addressed. This is neither.

[Thor]

I think a lot of the men who are siding with Dawkins and many of the responders to this whole argument are probably frustrated with how women in the west want seemingly a strong man with confidence and at the same time a sensitive wimp who should know better than to dare speak to a woman in an elevator (WTF were you thinking dude.)

We'll never know how he behaved truly, his body language, was he drunk, had he been creepy all night at the bar, etc..

But what I'm getting from many of the guys upset at all this is the frustration we all feel after these last decades of being molded into a modern 'man' who is supposed to be something that a modern western woman wants us to be.

This whole thing frustrates me, maybe because of the post about being asked by a woman to leave a park because she and her child felt uncomfortable; I felt genuinely sick to my stomach imagining how he must have felt. Men are so easily made out to be bad guys and potential rapists/molesters these days because yes these things still happen and its sad that it does.

Gender studies are a great idea, there seems to be for many women a real disconnect between what they think they want from men and what they are attracted to. If all men tomorrow stopped making the first move on women, I wonder how long it would be before the feminists started to think differently about some of their ideas.

As a man in these times you get frustrated because your damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Either way we're the bad guy, its a no win situation.

[Regorium]

I love stories like this, because it completely illuminates to anyone how radical and removed from reality that feminism has become.

Doesn't really affect me, the second someone identifies themselves as a feminist (man or woman), I know it's not somebody I want to be around.

Real feminists - ones that want equality for women, fighting for their rights in the 3rd world and other hellish places as well as setting great examples for young women here, never really identify themselves as such, and you can always tell their true good values within bounds of actual conversation.

[Knalus]

I like how, for once, skeptics are talking about a social issue without claiming that religion is the cause of the problem. Perhaps, if they dig a little deeper, the "community" gets a little larger, and things go on longer, they'll start to realize that many of the superficial issues that are brought up as evils of religion aren't caused by religion itself, but instead are issues that humans have with other humans. As a religions person AND a scientist, I have to say that the most damning thing that the recent surge of interest in skepticism and atheism has brought forward to me, is that religion hasn't been overly effective at "fixing" the ills of society. I find it interesting to see that to some, atheism isn't helping much either.


Chalk me up as a "skeptic" of skepticism and atheism gaining much traction in making the world a better place.

Please, I just wanted to point something out, not get into a pissing match disguised as an argument. Please understand that.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Knalus

As a religions person AND a scientist,

Not to get into a pissing match, but I think it should be pointed out that you couldn't be a scientist without skepticism.

[Tinordi]

Always great to watch a bunch of men use sexist arguments to describe why sexism is a non-issue. Lets all go post in the hot women thread!