The Official 2010/2011 Champions League Thread

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

Diving and arrogant wanker championship team fan celebration turns violent.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/soccer/ne...olence-6990251

Could be a trend this year.

Vancouver will follow suit when they lose; hook, line and sinker.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Vancouver will follow suit when they lose; hook, line and sinker.

You mean when they win?

Barca won and their celebration turned violent.

Hopefully Wancouver will lose and their celebration will turn violent.

Well I'm hopeful they lose, not that there is a riot.

[troutman]

For the hard core fans - is a team like Barca better than top National teams?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by troutman

For the hard core fans - is a team like Barca better than top National teams?

Absolutely. Spain might give them some competition considering they're virtually one and the same but that would be about it.

[d_phaneuf]

I would take the top 20 club teams in the world against Spain or any other international team

[troutman]

That is saying something. Is the system broken if the richest franchises can build teams better than the best national teams?

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by troutman

That is saying something. Is the system broken if the richest franchises can build teams better than the best national teams?

It depends how you define broken I guess. The way I see it there are about 5 or 6 competitions happening at once during the course of the league (using the EPL as an example).

At the bottom there are generally about 5 or 6 teams that are facing the distinct possibility of relegation. Their season goal is not to be sent down - if they stay up they win. Most of these teams realize this and staying up is a huge victory. For reference, the bottom three teams are relegated to the lower division (much less money and prestige).

At the top end, there are usually about 3-4 teams that have a shot at winning the league title with usually two heavy favorites at the start of the year. There is also a sub-competition there where the top three qualify instantly for the $$$$$$$$$ (aka Champions League group stages). Those teams that were in the running for the League (but failed) now face another mini competition - holding off those under them to stay in the top four. The fourth place finisher must then play a qualifier to enter the group stage of the Champions League.

There is also the competition for the mid table teams to hit the lesser European competition - Europa. For the EPL, there is also a spot for the FA Cup and Carling Cup winner as well a potential "fair play" spot. If the Champions League qualifiers (4) win either or both domestic cups, then the 6th and/or 7th place team qualifies for Europe.

Europe = money.
Champions league >>> Europa

So to summarize...

• Bottom teams compete to stay in the top division. Staying up will trigger great celebrations!

• Lower middle teams compete to get 5-7 places but also to stay out of the relegation danger zone - many are stuck in limbo between relegation and Europe.

• Upper middle teams compete for Europa and CL spots

• Top teams compete for League title and top 4 (especially top 3) - anything else is a failure or monumental proportions

Because of all of this the top teams continue to get money and exposure through European competition - the rich get richer. The mercenary egotistical nature of the players also adds to the problem. "I am great. I deserve to be playing Champions League football. Here is my transfer request" and the big boys come calling with fistfulls of cash. Obviously these players are top internationals and they tend to migrate to the top teams. So when you can pluck the top players from "lesser" nations the end result is more skill than 9-15 (for example) on the depth chart of a football powerhouse.

I know there are probably some mistakes in there (tired and don't feel like editing) and some people may have a different take but that is how I see it. Whether it is broken or not is in the eye of the beholder.

Although there may be some significant changes with the Financial Fair Play rules that are coming for the EPL...

http://www.premierleague.com/page/Headlines/0,,12306~1797644,00.html

[GirlySports]

National teams are now worse than club teams. Club teams are like all-star teams and they have the better managers and are always ahead in tactics.

Teams in the 2010 World Cup started playing 4-2-3-1... clubs had been playing that for years.. now they're onto a more direct 4-3-3 and national teams haven't caught up yet.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

You mean when they win?

Barca won and their celebration turned violent.

Hopefully Wancouver will lose and their celebration will turn violent.

Well I'm hopeful they lose, not that there is a riot.

No, when they lose. And they will lose. And they will repeat 1994 all over again.

[Oilbert]

There should be a salary cap.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Oilbert

There should be a salary cap.

Salary cap doesn't really work with promotion/relegation. The whole english football league (92 teams) is survival of the fittest.

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by Oilbert

There should be a salary cap.

it was somewhat like that before the Premier League era, the league is much more compelling now

and the tv money is split somewhat fairly

in Spain it's ridiculous, Barca and Madrid get something like 90% of the tv money so no other clubs have a chance to really compete

Italy is similar right now but is moving towards a split like the Premier League very soon

I prefer the relegation system here, it would never work in North America, but in England especially with the championship it is absolutely fantastic

the playoff final (also known as the biggest money game in the world) today between Reading/Swansea was fantastic. A Welsh team will be in the PL next year.

And it makes it so that the bottom of the table most times is more entertaining than the top at the end of the year.

no way they introduce a salary cap now though, if any of the big 4 countries did that they would get trounced in the CL which is where the big money is

[troutman]

Originally Posted by diane_phaneuf

it was somewhat like that before the Premier League era, the league is much more compelling now

How so? Only 3-4 teams have a realistic chance of winning. In the NFL, every team has a chance, small or large market. "Sub/mini-competitions" are for suckers.

In the old days, many teams could win the top division. Some of those proud franchises are now buried in the second and third division. Ex. Nottingham Forest

I find it bizarre that the non-elite franchises think it is ok to be satisfied with developing players and battling to avoid relegation. There should be a class revolt. The worker franchises must be electrified to over-throw the industrial bourgeois elite.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by troutman

How so? Only 3-4 teams have a realistic chance of winning. In the NFL, every team has a chance, small or large market. "Sub/mini-competitions" are for suckers.

In the old days, many teams could win the top division. Some of those proud franchises are now buried in the second and third division. Ex. Nottingham Forest

I find it bizarre that the non-elite franchises think it is ok to be satisfied with developing players and battling to avoid relegation. There should be a class revolt. The worker franchises must be electrified to over-throw the industrial bourgeois elite.

People like to watch big teams not little teams. Big teams create insane tv money that is divided to all teams.

The Swansea-Reading match was worth 60 MILLION! Parity does not create big money. It's just the soccer culture. There are big teams in every league in the world except MLS.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

No, when they lose. And they will lose. And they will repeat 1994 all over again.

But then they won't be following Barca because they won.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by troutman

I find it bizarre that the non-elite franchises think it is ok to be satisfied with developing players and battling to avoid relegation. There should be a class revolt. The worker franchises must be electrified to over-throw the industrial bourgeois elite.

It's funny because that is what you get when you look at the larger picture. In other parts of the World, it is more important that any team in the country could play in the top flight and win it all than any team in the top flight realistically being able to win the league. In North America, there is parity but it comes at the expense of inclusion. Elsewhere, having the league open to anyone is more important than league parity. In fact, the league is often more than just the top flight; its a pyramid.

In addition to the inclusion, I really love the sub-competition. Every clubs gets some form of excitement out of one of them almost every season. You mentioned Nott Forest, well Charlton is a bit similar. They have been much more interesting to follow than the Flames over the last decade and they haven't been anywhere close to a final.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Addick

It's funny because that is what you get when you look at the larger picture. In other parts of the World, it is more important that any team in the country could play in the top flight and win it all than any team in the top flight realistically being able to win the league. In North America, there is parity but it comes at the expense of inclusion. Elsewhere, having the league open to anyone is more important than league parity. In fact, the league is often more than just the top flight; its a pyramid.

In addition to the inclusion, I really love the sub-competition. Every clubs gets some form of excitement out of one of them almost every season. You mentioned Nott Forest, well Charlton is a bit similar. They have been much more interesting to follow than the Flames over the last decade and they haven't been anywhere close to a final.

Also there's is the Champion's League component. A country wants to have giants atop the league in order to be competitive against other big giants. It's all bragging rights. If the league has parity, the top team will be too weak to compete against someone else. Unless we make all 200 top divisions to have a salary cap, it won't work.

North American leagues in the 4 major sports don't have to play other leagues so they can have economic stability within the 30 teams. In soccer we're talking thousands of teams.

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by troutman

How so? Only 3-4 teams have a realistic chance of winning. In the NFL, every team has a chance, small or large market. "Sub/mini-competitions" are for suckers.

In the old days, many teams could win the top division. Some of those proud franchises are now buried in the second and third division. Ex. Nottingham Forest

I find it bizarre that the non-elite franchises think it is ok to be satisfied with developing players and battling to avoid relegation. There should be a class revolt. The worker franchises must be electrified to over-throw the industrial bourgeois elite.

The sports system in Europe is just so much different, some teams only have stadiums that can seat a few thousand people

some stadiums can seat 70,000

and with the transfer of players being so much different, there are very few trades or free agents of top level players, all the players are bought and sold

and in a relegation system it would be impossible to put in a salary cap that allows every team to compete.

This year Blackpool came up, their revenue is 1/10th of most Premier League clubs, they are not going to ever compete with teams in London, Liverpool, or Manchester. But their promotion from the Championship this year was just as important to their fans as a title is to NHL/NBA/MLB/NFL teams in North America. Their one year in the Premier League was just the cherry on top.

It's hard for people in North America who aren't used to it to understand it, just because the playoff system is so ingrained to crown a champion, and parity among teams is believed to be more important.

A successful season for Luton Town is completely different than one from a team like Blackburn, or Manchester United etc. But all 3 can have fantastic seasons.

A team like Manchester City finished 3rd this season and their fans are ecstatic, it's their best season possibly ever, and easily in the last 40-50 years.

and Chelsea finished 2nd and it was a horrible year, they sacked their manager who just won them two trophies 1 year ago.

Every team has it's real own goals, only 5 or 6 really have a shot at the title
But it works in Europe, it works perfectly in my opinion.

The smallest teams most of the time have the most loyal fanbases.

that's the romanticized reasoning.

Economically, the Champions league will never allow it. Getting in to the CL group stages is worth around 35m pounds in tv money. Each round you progress is another 5-10m I believe.

It's worth it too much at the top to change the system, and if the teams at the bottom every revolted and changed the system than the top teams in England/Spain/Germany/Italy would just create their own superleague, and it would dwarf everything else worldwide.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by diane_phaneuf

It's hard for people in North America who aren't used to it to understand it...

I blame the franchise system. The commercialisation of sport was inevitable, the direction taken was optional.