Kirk Cameron Attacks Stephen Hawking

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Nothing in that prayer is specific to Christians? Dude, that has to be the most wrong thing you've said in a very long string of wrong things you've said so far in this thread. It's a CHRISTIAN prayer. It comes directly from the New Testament (Matthew 6:9-13 to be exact).

Fair enough...didnt know it was from the bible...i was much more just referring to the actual content of what was said.

[Thor]

Transplant, did you ever consider that you are the only one supporting Calgaryborn's position.

I mean, sh*t, if CB agreed with me, I'd wonder if it was the apocalypse.

Oh wait, its May 21st!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bane]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Just think isn't wonderful how one atheist boy can bring a whole religious community together! I'll bet church attendance will be way up this week!

Not to mention unplanned teen pregnancy

[MarchHare]

Here is the quote...what part do you disagree with?

I disagree with your assertion that he finds specific words or a specific prayer stressing. What he finds stressing is his school administration not protecting his right to freedom of religion and having a prayer forced on him. It would be equally wrong if it was spoken in Latin and he didn't understand a word of it.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

Doesn't the bible say something like all sins are equal? Why are you not denouncing her glutony as much as you would denounce a murderer? Or do you defend murder as well?

No, not all sins are equal. Some are even explicitly stated as being unforgivable but to what sins that is attributed to varies with denominations and interpretations.

[Thor]

I mean sh*t, I'd hang out with CB, we might disagree 100% but ultimately he's not some horrible human being.

Just dead wrong.

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by transplant99

When people around you decide tos tart talking and/or praying Im not sure what else you can do. Im not christian either, but I have been exposed to many a prayer and never thought twice about it. Other than that, you dont. If the school sanctioned this prayer then you have a case, but when individual students lead it and from the sounds of it everyone else joins in...not sure what you can do.

Well I can speak out against it, but then I might be picked last to walk the stage and become the laughing stock of the town and might even receive some death threats.

[photon]

Originally Posted by puckluck

Well if I was a graduating student in that class I would be offended by having to listen to a prayer I don't believe in.

I'd understand if they did a moment of silence where people can pray to whatever god they want, but they subjected the crowd to their god and only their god.

I would really like to hear your comment on this transplant99, perspective from someone from another religion (not an atheist).

EDIT: Late.

Originally Posted by transplant99

My views are nothing more than "was this worth it to him" and how easily it could have been avoided...I think that much is pretty clear.

You can't know his mind, you can't know what he values. Some people just go along with the flow when the majority tell them to sit down and shut up and go along, but there are some who don't. Living in the community he does with the horrible examples of humans around him, I'm sure he's well familiar with avoiding conflict.

I have to do it myself with some of my Christian acquaintances, avoid topics or speaking what I really think because of their responses. Doesn't say much about them.

Originally Posted by transplant99

I would agree except that nothing in that prayer excludes anyone else nor is it specific to christians...though I am aware it is one said by them

The prayer comes from Christian scripture, how is it not Christian??

EDIT: Late here to

And praying for God's kingdom to come where God is in control excludes everyone not part of that kingdom; they'll all be in hell.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Thor

Transplant, did you ever consider that you are the only one supporting Calgaryborn's position.

I mean, sh*t, if CB agreed with me, I'd wonder if it was the apocalypse.

Oh wait, its May 21st!!!!!!!!!!!

Supporting what position?

Have you followed what I have said at all or have you just jumped to conclusions? I have never said that it was legal to pray at school, i never said he didnt have the right to challenge it, I never once ever have said anything other than I questioned his motives originally and was it worth it to him to become a pariah in his community.

Its fascinating to me actually, how absolutely organized the atheist community has become...and this "case" will likely rally things even further. I have often said that whether one is fanatical about there being a god or fanatical about there not being a god....both are still fanatical. I see that all over the place in both this thread and in the whole Mr Fowler saga.

[MarchHare]

If the school sanctioned this prayer then you have a case, but when individual students lead it and from the sounds of it everyone else joins in...not sure what you can do.

You brush up on your case law and read about Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe in which the Supreme Court ruled that public prayers at schools, even if they're student-led, are still an unconstitutional violation of the First Amendment.

Link to the actual Supreme Court ruling: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-62.ZS.html

Wikipedia (ZOMG NON-CREDIBLE SOURCE!) article explaining the ruling without the legalese: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_F...l_Dist._v._Doe

The Santa Fe Independent School District (SFISD), a school district in Texas between the cities of Houston and Galveston, allowed students to offer Christian prayers over the public address system at home football games. These prayers were given by an elected student chaplain.
Two sets of current or former students and their respective mothers—one Mormon, the other Catholic—objected to this practice and filed a suit on the basis of a violation of the Establishment Clause. Judge Samuel B. Kent of the United States District Court for the Southern District of Texas allowed the plaintiffs to remain anonymous to protect them from harassment. They are referred to as the Does.
During the litigation, the school changed its policy: they would hold two elections under students, the first deciding if "invocations" should be held during football games and the second to elect the student to deliver them. The students elected in favor of prayer; therefore, they were given this right.

[...]

The Court held that the policy allowing the student led prayer at the football games was unconstitutional. The majority opinion, written by Justice Stevens depended on Lee v. Weisman.[2] It held that these pre-game prayers delivered "on school property, at school-sponsored events, over the school's public address system, by a speaker representing the student body, under the supervision of school faculty, and pursuant to a school policy that explicitly and implicitly encourages public prayer" are not private, but public speech. "Regardless of the listener's support for, or objection to, the message, an objective Santa Fe High School student will unquestionably perceive the inevitable pregame prayer as stamped with her school's seal of approval."

[RogerWilco]

Oh man, you just lied. You are Soooo screwed tomorrow.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by puckluck

Well I can speak out against it, but then I might be picked last to walk the stage and become the laughing stock of the town and might even receive some death threats.

Yep all true..and I even predicted as much earlier in this thread. Its not right, but it doesnt surprise me one iota. I live in the South. I know how fervent Baptists can be and how blinded they are by their beliefs...and nothing is going to change that any time soon. Its why I thought all along this was a bad choice by a 17 YO kid...not because what he was choosing to do what he did was wrong, but because there was always going to be a backlash over it. One i am not sure someone that you g could possibly be prepared for. Thankfully it looks as though he has created a tremendous support network though and he should be OK. I am more worried about his relationship with his "mother" than anything though...hopefully she comes around.

[photon]

Need quotes around "mother".

[photon]

Lulz.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

You brush up on your case law and read about Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe in which the Supreme Court ruled that public prayers at schools, even if they're student-led, are still an unconstitutional violation of the First Amendment.

Link to the actual Supreme Court ruling: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-62.ZS.html

Wikipedia (ZOMG NON-CREDIBLE SOURCE!) article explaining the ruling without the legalese: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_F...l_Dist._v._Doe

I understand that...I do. What I am saying is...what can they do though? Should they have had a sniper at the ready to clock someone who mentioned "god"?

Should the student be arrested and prosecuted?

I honestly dont understand what it is they expect to have happen. I agree if the school and/or teachers agreed to the prayer in this case...they are screwed. But from reading what I did, this was not the case. It was the community getting together and deciding among themselves they were going to do it together....students, parents and whoever else.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by photon

Need quotes around "mother".

Fixed.

[MarchHare]

I understand that...I do. What I am saying is...what can they do though? Should they have had a sniper at the ready to clock someone who mentioned "god"?

Should the student be arrested and prosecuted?

I honestly dont understand what it is they expect to have happen. I agree if the school and/or teachers agreed to the prayer in this case...they are screwed. But from reading what I did, this was not the case. It was the community getting together and deciding among themselves they were going to do it together....students, parents and whoever else.

It's a tough spot for them, but their only real option would have been to cut her mic and reiterate that public prayers are not permitted for legal reasons. If they were really bright, they could have followed it up with, "However, for those students and their families and friends who wish to join in a declaration of our Christian faith, there will be an optional prayer session held at XYZ church following the graduation ceremony."

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by photon

You can't know his mind, you can't know what he values. Some people just go along with the flow when the majority tell them to sit down and shut up and go along, but there are some who don't. Living in the community he does with the horrible examples of humans around him, I'm sure he's well familiar with avoiding conflict.

I have to do it myself with some of my Christian acquaintances, avoid topics or speaking what I really think because of their responses. Doesn't say much about them.

No I cant but i can certainly have an opinion about it...i think.

And praying for God's kingdom to come where God is in control excludes everyone not part of that kingdom; they'll all be in hell.

You were a preacher/sermonizer/whatever it was, so maybe you believe that to be true and maybe thats what it was meant to portray...i honestly have no idea.

i have heard the LP hundreds of times in my life, and not once ever did I come to that conclusion, but then again it wasnt worth my time to analyze it as such as I never gave that stuff a second thought.

So if that's the case here for young Mr Fowler, then I can see where it would be bothersome...i guess. Except that he doesnt believe it to begin with much like myself, so I dont know where it would become anything but words in one ear and out the other.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

It's a tough spot for them, but their only real option would have been to cut her mic and reiterate that public prayers are not permitted for legal reasons. If they were really bright, they could have followed it up with, "However, for those students and their families and friends who wish to join in a declaration of our Christian faith, there will be an optional prayer session held at XYZ church following the graduation ceremony."

I guess...just dont see how that would at all be practical is all.

I believe that the thing was probably known by the school all along..and whatever the case those people, particularly the few hundred in the stands, were saying something one way or another. Now even if the mic gets yanked...the prayer is still going on...now what?

See this was kind of what I have been trying to get at all along. They were gonna see this happen regardless...and when thsi thing gained as much traction as it did, it was going to go ahead with even more determination. All of it could have been avoided, i think we can all agree on that, but yes the kid would have had to sit and listen to a prayer of some sort...which ended up happening anyhow.

My whole "idea" on these things is more a live and let live kind of thing. get along with everyone even if means compromising for a few minutes...because as it turned out, he was still subjected to it ( as predicted) and now has all these issues to deal with in his life.

Now it looks like he is getting a nice college fund started through the generosity of people and ceratinly has a large network of support (including his brother which is huge considering the whole "mother" issue) so maybe this is a success for him. If so, bravo. If not...well......

[MarchHare]

My whole "idea" on these things is more a live and let live kind of thing. get along with everyone even if means compromising for a few minutes...because as it turned out, he was still subjected to it ( as predicted) and now has all these issues to deal with in his life.

I agree with you completely about this being a live and let live thing, but why must it be the atheist who has to compromise and be subjected to unconstitutional state-sanctioned religious prayer rather than the other way around? Why couldn't the Christians attend a religion-free, secular graduation ceremony respectful of everyone's beliefs and have an optional prayer session off school property either before or after the event?