Kirk Cameron Attacks Stephen Hawking

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Atheist boy hasn't been told he has to believe in God. If he would have just tolerated this 2 minute prayer and whatever long winded speeches are scheduled he would be graduating with the blessing of his family and peers. Instead he decided to make some noise and play victim.

...

You keep protraying this kid as a victim. He isn't. He wanted to cause a stir and thumb his nose at his peers and the people in authority in his life:
Mission accomplished! Now he can deal with the fallout.

God forbid that anybody should stand up for their principles. You are right, he has to deal with the fallout. He has to deal with the consequences and the consequences of how people are reacting to this are what proves that his principle has merits.

I remember when my high school graduation featured a pastor coming in to pray. Our teachers went through a big talk about how if we were offended by this issue, that we need not bow our heads or agree with anything being expressed. Even then, they were cognizant that this tradition was antiquated and infringed upon the rights of people of other faiths or no faith at all. Even then, when I was raised as a believer, I felt insidiously uncomfortable with the whole idea and for my peers. That was one of my moments of epiphany because I realized that this practice was wrong.

We should all tolerate things like that and go along with the will of masses and never stand up for our principles then? This is a perfect time for someone to bring up an allegory with tolerating Nazism in 1930s Germany but I don't want to fall prey to Godwin's Law, AKA Reductio ad Hitlerum.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by moon

They get a moment of silence to pray and the kids that are intelligent and going on to college aren't forced to endure the illegal religious BS forced onto them. Everyone gets what they want.

Not surprising at all.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by photon

So you are against the establishment clause then? A government should be able to promote one religion above others?

No, in general a government (school board in this case) should not be promoting one religion over another unless its what is accepted practice as has been the case ehere for years.

Being in an environment where you are continually told what you think is an abomination IS stressful, having that view supported by the supposedly secular institution that's supposed to treat everyone equally is further stress yes.

Amount of stress for a single individual, who knows, but it's not about one instance.

This is ONE time...ata graduation ceremony. Not sure where you are getting any other idea. They dont do this everyday in class...ot at least from what I have read they dont.

It is about freedom, and having a sectarian prayer in school functions is counter to freedom, because it forces people to participate in a religious activity not of their choosing.

Nobody is "forced" to do anything...if it is so "stressful" to listen to a 2 minute prayer...get up walk outside, sip a soda and go back in. The reasoning is nonsense.

And the faithful in other religions are free to have their own prayers. The moment of silence seems like the most reasonable thing.

Yes...they will still be praying and he has become a pariah. Great choice on his part.

All because he wanted to allow people to be free to pray whatever they wanted (or not pray) rather than be compelled to participate in a religious activity endorsed illegally by the government.

havent seen the video...sorry....but no he did not "want to allow others to pray", in fact it was quite the opposite.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

God forbid that anybody should stand up for their principles.

Oh Calgaryborn supports standing up, he advocated civil disobedience... as long as it's for what he wants. If it's against what he wants then it's causing a stir and disrespecting authorities.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Nobody is "forced" to do anything...if it is so "stressful" to listen to a 2 minute prayer...get up walk outside, sip a soda and go back in. The reasoning is nonsense.

The Supreme Court decision applies explicitly to this argument.

(d) Petitioners' argument that the option of not attending the ceremony excuses any inducement or coercion in the ceremony itself is rejected. In this society, high school graduation is one of life's most significant occasions, and a student is not free to absent herself from the exercise in any real sense of the term "voluntary." Also not dispositive is the contention that prayers are an essential part of these ceremonies because for many persons the occasion would lack meaning without the recognition that human achievements cannot be understood apart from their spiritual essence. This position fails to acknowledge that what for many was a spiritual imperative was for the Weismans religious conformance compelled by the State. It also gives insufficient recognition to the real conflict of conscience faced by a student who would have to choose whether to miss graduation or conform to the state sponsored practice, in an environment where the risk of compulsion is especially high. Pp. 15-17.

(e) Inherent differences between the public school system and a session of a state legislature distinguish this case from Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783, which condoned a prayer exercise. The atmosphere at a state legislature's opening, where adults are free to enter and leave with little comment and for any number of reasons, cannot compare with the constraining potential of the one school event most important for the student to attend. Pp. 17-18.

This is not about personal stress or suffering. It is about principle and his constitutional rights.

[MarchHare]

No, in general a government (school board in this case) should not be promoting one religion over another unless its what is accepted practice as has been the case ehere for years.

The government should not be promoting one religion over another PERIOD. It matters not if it was previously the accepted practice in that jurisdiction. It's unconstitutional and illegal.

havent seen the video...sorry....but no he did not "want to allow others to pray", in fact it was quite the opposite.

Actually, he was very much willing to allow others at the graduation to pray, so long as it was done during a non-denominational moment of silence in accordance with Louisiana law.

Here's the original letter he wrote to the district superintendent. Emphasis added.

It has come to my attention that during the graduation ceremony, there may be a prayer (as was the case at a previous graduation I attended). As a graduating senior of the class of 2011 and an atheist, I would like to respectfully request this particular activity be left out. I understand the majority of the school may be Christian, but this in no way should supercede any other individual's religious belief.
Louisiana law states what is acceptable is a "brief time of silent meditation or prayer". I respect everyone's religious beliefs, but disregarding my request would be offensive and illegal, then forcing me to contact the ACLU.
I thank you for complying. If this was sent to the wrong person (not in charge of the graduation ceremony) please inform me.

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comm...lic_prayer_at/

[transplant99]

Yeah yeah yeah...i understand that the Supreme Court has ruled on all this...im not an idiot. So please refrain from posting the same crap over and over.

Just because that is the law...doesnt necessarily make it right in EVERY instance though.

Unfortunately your intolerance wont allow you to see that however.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by moon

How is their religious expression being limited? They can still pray anytime during the ceremony and specifically at the time of the moment of silence.

Think about it. If there was no restriction there would be no controversy. Obvoiously the students and their parents wanted someone authoritive to lead them in a short prayer during the long ceremony. That was too much for atheist boy.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by photon

Oh Calgaryborn supports standing up, he advocated civil disobedience... as long as it's for what he wants. If it's against what he wants then it's causing a stir and disrespecting authorities.

Exactly. There are countless examples of Christians standing up to authority and conventional practice under the crucible of both peers and overriding public pressure, both legal and illegal and they are all celebrated. Everything from early Christian martyrs to Eric Liddell. I guess they are heroes and saints while this guy is just a anarchist? This is the same hypocrisy that casts a negative light on Christianity for the public. This is why people view religion badly.

Oh wait, I forget, what was Jesus doing in the first place? Causing a stir? He should have just let the temple merchants go on with it's business instead of destroying private property. He should have just tolerated it.

I am not saying that Christianity is wrong, only that believing that religions have the right to enforce certain practices that others must simply submit to is hypocrisy when the same actions carried out in the name of that religion are one of the most celebrated tenets of the faith - ie: perseverance through persecution while standing up for a principle.

Religious parents are constantly pulling their kids out of things like sexual education classes. I know I was until I convinced my parents that it was imperative that I receive this...education (hehe). Those kids are often ostracized by their peers for not taking part, etc. This guy is now being ostracized and persecuted by his entire community and even his own family for standing up for his beliefs.

[MarchHare]

Unfortunately your intolerance wont allow you to see that however.

There you go again accusing us of being intolerant.

Having a non-denominational moment of silence in which the attendees are free to pray (or not) to any religious figure of their choice is tolerant and respectful of the beliefs of everyone present. Forcing a Christian prayer on the audience orally over the PA system is intolerant to non-Christians. Moreover, the former is legal and constitutional, the latter is not.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Actually, he was very much willing to allow others at the graduation to pray, so long as it was done during a non-denominational moment of silence in accordance with Louisiana law.

Here's the original letter he wrote to the district superintendent. Emphasis added.



http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comm...lic_prayer_at/

Really?

As a graduating senior of the class of 2011 and an atheist, I would like to respectfully request this particular activity be left out.

Pretty obvious what his end game was...and now he is realizing the consequences...rightly or wrongly. Instead of using a little common sense he is now chastised.

Good for him i suppose.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

There you go again accusing us of being intolerant.

Having a non-denominational moment of silence in which the attendees are free to pray (or not) to any religious figure of their choice is tolerant and respectful of the beliefs of everyone present. Forcing a Christian prayer on the audience orally over the PA system is intolerant to non-Christians. Moreover, the former is legal and constitutional, the latter is not.

Cause you are.

[Thor]

Dude transplant your a good guy, but you've really taken all this personally and its probably because of how this thread started for you with the racist insinuation.

I honestly don't see this going anywhere but downhill, you have said your peace and we've all said ours.

But to call us intolerant for supporting this kid? The one who's now basically going to be forced to leave his town, his parents refuse to speak with him and have cut him off financially.

Anyhow, I'm not going to argue with you specifically anymore, the points are made you have your viewpoint on this and many others strongly disagree, and I don't think there is any further point in discussing it; nothing but bad feelings will come out of it.

Besides we have the end of the world tomorrow to deal with, can't we all on this lovely Friday just get along ala Rodney King style?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Cause you are.

Except we're actually not.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Think about it. If there was no restriction there would be no controversy. Obvoiously the students and their parents wanted someone authoritive to lead them in a short prayer during the long ceremony. That was too much for atheist boy.

If that was my kid, wether I agreed or not, I would be very proud of them for standing up for their rights and having enough backbone to see it through.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by photon

Oh Calgaryborn supports standing up, he advocated civil disobedience... as long as it's for what he wants. If it's against what he wants then it's causing a stir and disrespecting authorities.

Really?

I just gave a real time account a couple pages back of religious prayers being said in my school today that I don't approve of. My reaction wasn't to try and silence them. I'm not advocating civil disobedience against them or filing a complaint against them. I'm exercizing a little tolerance. See how that works.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Really?

I just gave a real time account a couple pages back of religious prayers being said in my school today that I don't approve of. My reaction wasn't to try and silence them. I'm not advocating civil disobedience against them or filing a complaint against them. I'm exercizing a little tolerance. See how that works.

Tolerance is admirable, and one of the principles that I feel society is lacking the most of in this day and age. Along with compassion, tolerance is one of the most important things to me and it really is the key to real empathy and conflict resolution. If we were all a little more tolerant, world peace would be much more sustainable.

However, there are times for tolerance and there are also times for standing up for your beliefs and principles. It is your right to choose to tolerate something that infringes upon your personal rights and beliefs. It is admirable for you to adhere to the Christian principle of turning the other cheek. This student chose however, not to tolerate something that has been expressly ruled as an unconstitutional practice many times in the past.

Right now in this thread, you are standing up for your own religious convictions against what is seemingly a majority. What makes this situation any different from his? One of the biggest things that drive people away from Christianity and religion is the apparent hypocrisy practiced and condoned by so many.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Really?

I just gave a real time account a couple pages back of religious prayers being said in my school today that I don't approve of. My reaction wasn't to try and silence them. I'm not advocating civil disobedience against them or filing a complaint against them. I'm exercizing a little tolerance. See how that works.

What religious prayers were those?

[photon]

Originally Posted by transplant99

No, in general a government (school board in this case) should not be promoting one religion over another unless its what is accepted practice as has been the case ehere for years.

It's not accepted practice, it's illegal, they just got away with it. Just because you sped and didn't get caught doesn't mean speeding is OK.

"Accepted practice for years" should not take precedent over the law or the constitution.

Originally Posted by transplant99

This is ONE time...ata graduation ceremony. Not sure where you are getting any other idea. They dont do this everyday in class...ot at least from what I have read they dont.

But according to you if they did then it would be ok, if that was the accepted practice had been for years?

I wasn't talking about the school, I was talking in general. Look at the community's vastly disproportionate reaction. I have just as much grounds to speculate that the community has persecuted this kid because of his (lack of) beliefs as others who are saying he's stirring the pot. Moreso, because telling a non-believer they are lost and damned is a central tenant of the faith.

Plus you can't selectively enforce laws. You can't say it's ok at a graduation ceremony but not in home room.

Speeding is ok as long as you are Christian?

Originally Posted by transplant99

Nobody is "forced" to do anything...if it is so "stressful" to listen to a 2 minute prayer...get up walk outside, sip a soda and go back in. The reasoning is nonsense.

So you don't agree with the establishment clause then?

A state religion is fine, everyone else not of the state religion can just shut up and leave their own ceremony to celebrate graduation?

It's not just a 2 minute prayer, it's an endorsement of one religion above all others by the government, and either you allow it or you don't.

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yes...they will still be praying and he has become a pariah. Great choice on his part.

Yeah, someone suggests a reasonable compromise that would fit the law and be fair to all beliefs and non-beliefs, and the tyrannical majority wields their iron law.

It does fit within the totalitarian philosophy of the faith, so it shouldn't be surprising that people actually don't want to do unto others as they would have others do unto them.

Originally Posted by transplant99

havent seen the video...sorry....but no he did not "want to allow others to pray", in fact it was quite the opposite.

The video shows the attitude of the "Christians".

He did want people to be able to pray, that's why he proposed a moment of silence so Christians could pray to Jesus, other faiths however they wanted, rather than requiring participation in a Jesus-themed prayer (well requiring or being told to shut up and leave their own graduation ceremony if you don't want to listen to the state endorsed religion).

It's simple, either you agree with the idea behind the establishment clause and a secular society, or you support having theocracy, I don't see any middle ground.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Cause you are.

Pretty ridiculous man, I'm sorry.

Opening up a forced christian prayer to a moment of silence where everyone can do their own thing quietly is anything but intolerant.

I don't think you can be reasoned with at this point. You are hell bent on going the "he's making a big deal out of nothing, and getting what he deserves as an intolerant athiest" route and nobody can make you see otherwise.

The fact that every single christian in that room would be able to still have a christian prayer and only sacrifice the ability to force everyone to go along with them pretty much renders any intolerance argument invalid. Nobody is stopping anyone from praying. They just don't want to be forced to go along with it or hear it.

And I'm sorry, but frankly the sentiment that "someone can just get up and leave if they don't like it" is perfectly fine for some cases, but you have to respect the right of someone to bring up an issue and say "hey guys, you know what? I don't really appreciate having your belief system shoved in my face daily. I am fine with what you believe in, but can we respect ALL belief systems equally instead of favoring one?" That doesn't sound intolerant at all...quite honestly it sounds the opposite.

And to say that the guy can just get up and leave during the prayer part...this is for a graduation. For all students. Not just the majority, all of them. This should be a celebration that everyone can enjoy, a celebration made for a group of people that accomplished something while coming from different places, different belief systems and different cultural backgrounds. They all achieved the same thing. Let them celebrate it in a way everyone can enjoy.