Kirk Cameron Attacks Stephen Hawking

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I've linked to that ruling at least three times in this thread already. Some people (like transplant99) are ignoring our specific objections and think that we're saying that all prayer is illegal (nobody in this thread has ever made that claim), and others (like Calgaryborn) simply describe it as "a bad law".

Im hardly ignoring it...i am saying it is simply dumb in this instance.

Either you understand and disagree with what I am saying or you dont understand what I am saying at all.

"Im stressed" because others are hanging their heads in silence is just obtuse..... no matter how you slice it IMO.

I am all about everyone doing as they choose...its called freedom and using even a tiny bit of common sense allows everyone to get along with one another and avoid the crapstorm this kid has started.

He wins...I guess. Now there will be no prayer for anyone, instead a moment of silence...and guess what the faithful will be doing during this moment...praying!!!

yeah he really showed em allright. In the meantime he has apparently enraged an entire community and likely cost himself a relationship with some of his family and certainly many of his friends. All because he doesn't want to listen to a christian prayer that will take 2 minutes out of his life.

Seems awfully goofy to me...but then again I think I am applying common sense to the subject where as others simply refuse to. For doing so in this very thread I have been labelled racist, a jerk, and other not so flattering things.

Tolerance for everyone...unless you disagree with something.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Prayer at public school graduations hasn't been acceptable since 1992. They've only been doing it until now because nobody has complained.



I'm amused by your continued insistence that this is a "bad interpretation of the law." What legal qualifications do you have that makes you believe you're more of an expert on the US constitution than the justices of the Supreme Court?

You mean 5 of the 9 justices because 4 of them agree with me. I would say my side contains the majority of the originalists as well.

[MarchHare]

And until that day comes civil disobedience should and will be practiced. A bad ruling by the Supreme court shouldn't limit folks religious expression.

Religious expression isn't being limited. Believers are free to pray privately, in their homes, in their churches, and even in schools at voluntary Christian Fellowship clubs. What is not acceptable is for the school district to involuntarily force Christian (or any other religion) prayer on the student body as a whole.

So you concede that atheism is a religion?

Freedom of religion also means having the right to choose no religious beliefs at all.

One thing is clear; your unreligion is full of real intolerance.

Find me one post in this thread where an atheist is attempting to deny the rights of Christians to peacefully assemble and practice their faith in a private, non-government sponsored manner. You have the right to privately practice your religious beliefs. The government does not have the right to force religious beliefs or customs on the population.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by kirant

Isn't the "correct" interpretation the one determined by courts?

If that was the case things would never be revisited.

[MarchHare]

"Im stressed" because others are hanging their heads in silence is just obtuse..... no matter how you slice it IMO.

They weren't simply hanging their heads in silent prayer. That was the compromise proposal the kid suggested. The original program called for public, oral prayer over the school's PA system.

Your posts indicate that you think the kid is being a crybaby and should just suck it up for two minutes while silently allowing his constitutional rights to be violated. I say the kid should stick up for his rights and defend his classmates with similar worldviews who are too frightened about the backlash to defend themselves.

[Knut]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

You mean 5 of the 9 justices because 4 of them agree with me. I would say my side contains the majority of the originalists as well.

I think you and other "originalists" are going to be sorely dissapointed as time goes on. Social evolution is occuring as we speak and moving things to the more liberal side pretty quickly.

Where or not you beleive in physical evolution, you can not deny that social evolution is occuring.

[photon]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Im hardly ignoring it...i am saying it is simply dumb in this instance.

So you are against the establishment clause then? A government should be able to promote one religion above others?

Originally Posted by transplant99

"Im stressed" because others are hanging their heads in silence is just obtuse..... no matter how you slice it IMO.

Being in an environment where you are continually told what you think is an abomination IS stressful, having that view supported by the supposedly secular institution that's supposed to treat everyone equally is further stress yes.

Amount of stress for a single individual, who knows, but it's not about one instance.

Originally Posted by transplant99

I am all about everyone doing as they choose...its called freedom and using even a tiny bit of common sense allows everyone to get along with one another and avoid the crapstorm this kid has started.

It is about freedom, and having a sectarian prayer in school functions is counter to freedom, because it forces people to participate in a religious activity not of their choosing.

Originally Posted by transplant99

He wins...I guess. Now there will be no prayer for anyone, instead a moment of silence...and guess what the faithful will be doing during this moment...praying!!!

And the faithful in other religions are free to have their own prayers. The moment of silence seems like the most reasonable thing.

The video shows what they did with that moment of silence...

Originally Posted by transplant99

yeah he really showed em allright. In the meantime he has apparently enraged an entire community and likely cost himself a relationship with some of his family and certainly many of his friends. All because he doesn't want to listen to a christian prayer that will take 2 minutes out of his life.

All because he wanted to allow people to be free to pray whatever they wanted (or not pray) rather than be compelled to participate in a religious activity endorsed illegally by the government.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Religious expression isn't being limited. Believers are free to pray privately, in their homes, in their churches, and even in schools at voluntary Christian Fellowship clubs. What is not acceptable is for the school district to involuntarily force Christian (or any other religion) prayer on the student body as a whole.



Freedom of religion also means having the right to choose no religious beliefs at all.



Find me one post in this thread where an atheist is attempting to deny the rights of Christians to peacefully assemble and practice their faith in a private, non-government sponsored manner. You have the right to privately practice your religious beliefs. The government does not have the right to force religious beliefs or customs on the population.

You start your post by saying that "religious expression isn't being limited" and then goes on in that paragraph and the last one to tell me where you would limit it to. How ironic!

I do agree that freedom of religion also means the right to chose no religious beliefs at all. Atheist boy hasn't been told he has to believe in God. If he would have just tolerated this 2 minute prayer and whatever long winded speeches are scheduled he would be graduating with the blessing of his family and peers. Instead he decided to make some noise and play victim.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by transplant99

And none of those people are inbred hicks...keep up please.

Do you have any proof of this? Because their actions certainly make it seem like they are.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

YAtheist boy hasn't been told he has to believe in God. If he would have just tolerated this 2 minute prayer and whatever long winded speeches are scheduled he would be graduating with the blessing of his family and peers. Instead he decided to make some noise and play victim.

Too bad the kid isn't physically disabled. Then boy oh boy, they could really ostracise him.

[MarchHare]

Re: "Atheists are being intolerant of my beliefs!"

The Christians at the school demanded that the graduation ceremony include a Jesus-themed prayer recited publicly over the PA system. The atheist student proposed a compromise in which the ceremony would instead include a moment of silence in which Christians would be free to pray to Jesus, followers of other religions would be free to pray to the deity of their choice, and non-believers could silently reflect on anything they wish.

So tell me, which side of this debate is being more intolerant and less inclusive?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Hesla

I think you and other "originalists" are going to be sorely dissapointed as time goes on. Social evolution is occuring as we speak and moving things to the more liberal side pretty quickly.

Where or not you beleive in physical evolution, you can not deny that social evolution is occuring.

What you call evolution I can see as entrophy. Remember the fossil record is a record of death. You won't find one new species within it. Only old species; most of which are extinct. North American society is in decline. That doesn't mean things can't change. The history of Christianity within America isn't a history of constant decline. There has been periods of decline followed by periods of revival. It would be foolish to deny the possibility of anything.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

Too bad the kid isn't physically disabled. Then boy oh boy, they could really ostracise him.

I think atheism is enough of a disability.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

And until that day comes civil disobedience should and will be practiced. A bad ruling by the Supreme court shouldn't limit folks religious expression.

How is their religious expression being limited? They can still pray anytime during the ceremony and specifically at the time of the moment of silence.

Originally Posted by transplant99

He wins...I guess. Now there will be no prayer for anyone, instead a moment of silence...and guess what the faithful will be doing during this moment...praying!!!

If they are going to be praying anyways then who cares if it is a moment of silence or the BS Christian prayer that they want?

They get a moment of silence to pray and the kids that are intelligent and going on to college aren't forced to endure the illegal religious BS forced onto them. Everyone gets what they want.

[MarchHare]

Q.E.D.

[MoneyGuy]

You non-believers will sure be sorry tomorrow when the world ends.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I think atheism is enough of a disability.

The sort of closed-mindedness you exhibit is probably as great a disability as will ever be discovered in the human species.

[Knut]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I think atheism is enough of a disability.

Sweet... we all get handicapped parking

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

What you call evolution I can see as entrophy. Remember the fossil record is a record of death. You won't find one new species within it. Only old species; most of which are extinct.

Untrue of course.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I think atheism is enough of a disability.

If you're holding yourself up as an example of Christianity you're doing a terrible job of practicing what your religion preaches.