2011 Canadian Election Thread

[Slava]

Originally Posted by transplant99

This may seem a bit extreme but anyone defending that policy should be giving their heads a shake.

It destroyed the lives of thousands...its not some fairy tale either. I saw it and lived through it....and one party alone was responsible for it.

Oh, don't get me wrong I don't want to defend that policy and say that we should've kept it rolling. I just have a hard time believing that the entire recession that we went through at that time had nothing to do with the problems faced by Alberta citizens.

I also think that continually bringing the policy up thrity years later is just fear-mongering. We don't like it when the Liberals paint the CPC as scary and having a hidden agenda, but its seemingly OK for the CPC to pain the Liberals in that same light? Makes no sense.

Frankly though I don't know why I bother to bring this up, or even address it. Its like talking to a wall.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Slava

Oh, don't get me wrong I don't want to defend that policy and say that we should've kept it rolling. I just have a hard time believing that the entire recession that we went through at that time had nothing to do with the problems faced by Alberta citizens.

I also think that continually bringing the policy up thrity years later is just fear-mongering. We don't like it when the Liberals paint the CPC as scary and having a hidden agenda, but its seemingly OK for the CPC to pain the Liberals in that same light? Makes no sense.

Frankly though I don't know why I bother to bring this up, or even address it. Its like talking to a wall.

Quite simple...they have a history of doing just that.

Signed,

The Wall

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Slava

Oh, don't get me wrong I don't want to defend that policy and say that we should've kept it rolling. I just have a hard time believing that the entire recession that we went through at that time had nothing to do with the problems faced by Alberta citizens.

I also think that continually bringing the policy up thrity years later is just fear-mongering. We don't like it when the Liberals paint the CPC as scary and having a hidden agenda, but its seemingly OK for the CPC to pain the Liberals in that same light? Makes no sense.

Frankly though I don't know why I bother to bring this up, or even address it. Its like talking to a wall.

How is it a hidden agenda? The Liberal party has flat out continued to have policies in their platform that target the Alberta energy sector, they make no bones about it.

And you can see why people echo back to the NEP because its the most obvious comparison to the Green Shift and so on, so when Albertan's see that the first thing that they do is compare the possible effects to the NEP.

When we hear talk about the Conservative hidden agenda by the Liberals, its not based around economics, its based around really blatent personal liberties fear mongering, Abortion, Death Penalty, recinding Gay Marriage, yet I don't see these things in the Conservative party Platform. So we get the whole, if you give them a majority these things will all be recinded, and then the troops will hit the streets, George Bush will be named Emperor etc etc.

I guess you could say that the fear mongering about the Liberals is based on whats published in their red book. The fear mongering about the Conservatives is based on hidden agenda's that can't be proven.

[SebC]

I agree that the NEP was garbage, but it was also before my time. Can't help but wonder, though, how much damage might have been done by the Conservatives if they had been able to implement Flaherty's "no recession, therefore no stimulus" fiscal update in 2008.

I also agree that an exemption-laden cap-and-trade is anti-Alberta, as is blocking West Coast tanker traffic. My point, however, is that if the Liberals have no hope of getting elected in Alberta, then it's logical for them to be anti-Alberta and they have no incentive to change.

[Ford Prefect]

I'm of the Tweedledee/Tweedledum school of thought on the CPC and LPC. There is no appreciable difference between the CPC and LPC. They engage in much partisan posturing to disguise this, but it's all just a smoke screen. In the words of Pink Floyd ... Haha, charade you are! They're pigs too.

The NDP offer a different brand, but I don't agree with their ideology, so that leaves me effectively disenfranchised. The Greens have ideological potential, but at this point that's all it is. Until they come in from the wilderness they won't gain enough influence to make any more difference than the Rhino Party did. Maybe less.

Anyway, that's my two cents, and why I sit back and do nothing but take cheap shots at all sides. It amuses me greatly the degree to which partisan zealots get caught up in this charade though.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by SebC

I agree that the NEP was garbage, but it was also before my time. Can't help but wonder, though, how much damage might have been done by the Conservatives if they had been able to implement Flaherty's "no recession, therefore no stimulus" fiscal update in 2008.

Fair question and I have no facts to back this up just a general thought that if it did happen as you describe, I highly doubt it would have cost one province 100 Billion dollars though.

[V]

Originally Posted by Slava

Oh, don't get me wrong I don't want to defend that policy and say that we should've kept it rolling. I just have a hard time believing that the entire recession that we went through at that time had nothing to do with the problems faced by Alberta citizens.

I also think that continually bringing the policy up thrity years later is just fear-mongering. We don't like it when the Liberals paint the CPC as scary and having a hidden agenda, but its seemingly OK for the CPC to pain the Liberals in that same light? Makes no sense.

Frankly though I don't know why I bother to bring this up, or even address it. Its like talking to a wall.

Considering the fact that the NEP was 30 years ago, as well as considering the average age of those actually going out to vote, I would suggest that the massive majority of the voting public in Alberta was directly impacted by this policy. It is not some fuzzy distant memory of something from the past. This is something that directly impacted them and devastated their or their parents' livelihood. I don't understand how these people are supposed to ignore something so painful.

But going back to Seb's prisoner dilemma, based on current and past policies our potential loss from forgiving the Libs far exceeds our potential gain. On the flip side, the potential gains for the Libs by forgiving us (by attempting to implement some sort of policy that benefits Albertans) far exceeds the potential loss. I think the prisoner dilemma only really works when there is some kind of balance to this equation.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by transplant99

This may seem a bit extreme but anyone defending that policy should be giving their heads a shake.

It destroyed the lives of thousands...its not some fairy tale either. I saw it and lived through it....and one party alone was responsible for it.

Only drooling Liberal supporters would defend it.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by SebC

I agree that the NEP was garbage, but it was also before my time. Can't help but wonder, though, how much damage might have been done by the Conservatives if they had been able to implement Flaherty's "no recession, therefore no stimulus" fiscal update in 2008.

I also agree that an exemption-laden cap-and-trade is anti-Alberta, as is blocking West Coast tanker traffic. My point, however, is that if the Liberals have no hope of getting elected in Alberta, then it's logical for them to be anti-Alberta and they have no incentive to change.

They have no hope of being elected because they mention crap like blocking West Coast tanker traffic, when it is essential for Alberta to diversify their market for oil.

It would be logical of them to stop talking about stupid policies if they want a chance in Alberta.

[Calgaryborn]

I think that that betrayal by the Feds had a long term effect on the way the West views the role of the Federal government. People see less Federal control as better. Whether it is enviromental regulations or gun control there is little trust that the Federal government has our best interests at heart.

I was at an all canadates meeting last friday in Creston B.C. One question from the floor was what each canadate would do to see a vacant Old folks home in Creston reequiped to provide space for senior's assisted living. The Liberal canadate didn't show up. The independant and NDP canadate wanted a meeting to gather more information. And finally the Conservative canadate spoke and simply pointed out that the allocation of those funds is a provincal matter. He than pointed to the governments record on transfer payments and their future plans.

For a Western Canadian his answer was best. We want less federal government. We want less taken from us and less outside interferance in our lives. People who vote Liberal and certainly those who vote NDP want the Federal government used as a tool to fix everything that goes wrong or isn't right. Western Conservatives want clear limits on what the Fed involves itself in. Less is better. We don't trust them.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Fair question and I have no facts to back this up just a general thought that if it did happen as you describe, I highly doubt it would have cost one province 100 Billion dollars though.

I'm sure it's less than $100B too.

[SebC]

Just want to point out also that a huge chunk of why we get ignored is FPTP. We'd waste less votes if we voted less Conservative, but Rep-by-Pop would eliminated wasted votes completely.

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by Slava

...

I also think that after 30 years you have to get past these things. A lot of the people who are voting today couldn't even tell you what the NEP was and why it was bad....its fear-mongering at its best!

Simplified version:

- NEP was strictly a transfer of wealth from west to east (common theme in Canadian federal politics since foundation)
- it lessened the impact of the recession in the east and intensified in the west
- after the turnaround in the early 80's the NEP persisted which had the government taking from the an economy still mired in a recession (the west) and pumping it into a recovering economy in the east.
- it was not for the good of Canada - it was for the good of central Canada.

Not sure how or why one would want to "get past" this kind of thing as it seems to always be on the agenda for central Canada and as I posted before the CPC is least likely to bend us over again.

Mansell's "Strength in Adversity" is a good read.

[Hack&Lube]

Who would you vote for?



That last guy is a University drop-out who was a militant Maoist and communist sympathizer into his 30s. Not surprising eh?

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by SebC

That actually shows that you don't understand the analogy. Forgiveness is certainly counter-intuitive, but that doesn't make it wrong.

I don't think the prisoner's dilemna is applicable at all in this situation.

The Liberal government cost my uncle his house, so unless you are saying that the Liberal government is going to compensate him for that, then you are out of your gd mind if you think any Albertan affected by that is going to vote Liberal. I don't care if it is close minded, it is the absolute reality of the situation.

Would you personally be willing to "forgive" a party that wipes out your hard earned work over night?

Lets look at a little calculation of just how much money the Liberals cost my uncle because of the NEP.

His house was worth $250,000.
Let's take an average interest rate of 5%.
30 years ago.

The Liberal Party directly cost him $1,080,485.59.

And you want him to vote for them?

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

The Liberal government cost my uncle his house

Well that's what conservative (small "c") demogogues have conditioned people to think at any rate. I'm pretty sure the worldwide economic downturn combined with the shape decrease in the global market price of oil may have had something to do with it y'know.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by Slava

I also think that after 30 years you have to get past these things.

You don't get past deliberate economic devastation.

A lot of the people who are voting today couldn't even tell you what the NEP was and why it was bad....its fear-mongering at its best!

Irrelevant, just because someone doesn't understand why it was bad doesn't therefore mean it wasn't bad.

[Shazam]

Wikipedia has a decent article on the effects of the NEP that's mostly correct and complete.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Well that's what conservative (small "c") demogogues have conditioned people to think at any rate. I'm pretty sure the worldwide economic downturn combined with the shape decrease in the global market price of oil may have had something to do with it y'know.

And the high unemployment and job losses in Alberta and Saskatchewan was just an outlier and nothing to do with the NEP right?

The way I look at it, the Liberals owe Albertans a significant amount of money which they transferred to the east at the expense of the quality of life of a majority of Albertans.

Call it whatever you want, I call it facts.

If a political party takes away my ability to earn a living and directly costs me my job, house, savings, etc. Why would I ever, and I mean EVER vote them into a position to do so again?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

The Liberals don't give a crap about Alberta, they only care that they can exploit it for its resources. Prove me wrong.

[Devil's Rule]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

I don't think the prisoner's dilemna is applicable at all in this situation.

The Liberal government cost my uncle his house, so unless you are saying that the Liberal government is going to compensate him for that, then you are out of your gd mind if you think any Albertan affected by that is going to vote Liberal. I don't care if it is close minded, it is the absolute reality of the situation.

Would you personally be willing to "forgive" a party that wipes out your hard earned work over night?

Lets look at a little calculation of just how much money the Liberals cost my uncle because of the NEP.

His house was worth $250,000.
Let's take an average interest rate of 5%.
30 years ago.

The Liberal Party directly cost him $1,080,485.59.

And you want him to vote for them?

I absolutely agree, however in my case it was the Conservatives that stole my money with the Income Trust lie that they would not touch them and then bang the bottom falls out. And this is one reason that I will never vote for them again. But I agree and see why those affected by the NEP in Alberta would not vote Liberal.