2011 Canadian Election Thread

[Slava]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

While we talk about things being years ago, in terms of the institutional memory, the people that were for example victimized by the NEP are still very much part of the voting pool.

I even remember the Liberal rape of Alberta, because I remember my parents losing a business that they had spent years building up. I rememeber that they lost all of their savings to keep us kids fed and clothed when they weren't able to find work. I remember the tow truck showing up to tow away our car.

I remember my mom and dad sitting down and telling us kids that we would probably have to move because we couldn't keep the house.

And yet in most of the elections, the Liberal's have a policy in place that designed to move money from west to east.

So your right, when the Liberal's run up their platform, maybe I do eye it with a more jaundiced eye looking for its effects on the province that I live in.

So I do look at the Liberal's as more of a critical judge then I look at the Cons.

There we go. Only 104 pages on my settings to get to something that happened 30 years ago to explain things. Its weird how people here can forget about Brian Mulroney and his escapades (and the original guy who formed a coaltion with Quebec separtists), but can't let go of something that happened decades ago.

[J pold]

Originally Posted by Slava

There we go. Only 104 pages on my settings to get to something that happened 30 years ago to explain things. Its weird how people here can forget about Brian Mulroney and his escapades (and the original guy who formed a coaltion with Quebec separtists), but can't let go of something that happened decades ago.

Yeah but it's really not that surprising because the people who were effected by the NEP are still around today, and you can bet that they haven't forgotten. And why should they? Whenever my grandfather talks about it, he refers to it as the hardest period of his life. He was forced to layoff a number of good workers who needed that job to stay a float. A number of his friends and colleagues went totally bankrupt and he lost out on a large amount of income which resulted in him having to work another 8 years before retirement. Do you brush yourself off and keep moving? For sure you do, but you don't forget, you can't forget.

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

Why do they keep talking about hiring doctors? That's a provincial matter!

Probably because the average Canadian doesn't understand that connection.

Either that or they (whoever is promising) will add requirements to the way that the dollars can be spent. I don't recall if this is technically allowed, but that's a whole other matter.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

First, stop announcing anti-oil patch policies out in Ontario and Quebec. All that ever accomplishes is to play the east against the west. Things like this cap and trade system...

You know that the Conservative Party climate change plan includes Cap-and-Trade right? Go to Environment Canada and look up the Tories Climate Change Plan (it's called "Turning the Corner") it includes setting a price on Carbon and setting up an emissions trading market AKA Cap-and-Trade.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Slava

There we go. Only 104 pages on my settings to get to something that happened 30 years ago to explain things. Its weird how people here can forget about Brian Mulroney and his escapades (and the original guy who formed a coaltion with Quebec separtists), but can't let go of something that happened decades ago.

Show me where Mulroney caused utter fiscal and personal devestation because of a vendetta?

Show me the same with Harper.

The NEP nearly destroyed this province.

Alberta lost up to $100 billion dollars.

Unemployment went from 4 to 10%

The per person contributions from Alberta to the Feds doubled

Personal bankruptsy's increased by 150%

Please show me any other program that had that kind of specific economic effect on a region.

You want to know why there's a long term negative effect on Liberal fortunes here. Because even after the NEP was recinded, Candidate after Candidate promised reproachment with the West.

Then we get Chretien, who basically says "I don't get you so go away" and then punishes Calgary for not electing his candidates.

Then during his campaigns he flys over Alberta but never bothers to communicate his so called great vision.

Then we have Paul Martin, who promises reproachment and then does nothing while he's in power.

Then you get Dion who's green shift is a thinly veiled revenue generator for his Ontario plans.

Then we get Ignatieff who starts talking about the Tar Sands and cap and trade.

In all of this time the Federal Liberal's have never even had the common courtesy to talk to Albertan's to see if they can understand us.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Show me where Mulroney caused utter fiscal and personal devestation because of a vendetta?

Show me the same with Harper.

The NEP nearly destroyed this province.

Alberta lost up to $100 billion dollars.

Unemployment went from 4 to 10%

The per person contributions from Alberta to the Feds doubled

Personal bankruptsy's increased by 150%

Please show me any other program that had that kind of specific economic effect on a region.

You want to know why there's a long term negative effect on Liberal fortunes here. Because even after the NEP was recinded, Candidate after Candidate promised reproachment with the West.

Then we get Chretien, who basically says "I don't get you so go away" and then punishes Calgary for not electing his candidates.

Then during his campaigns he flys over Alberta but never bothers to communicate his so called great vision.

Then we have Paul Martin, who promises reproachment and then does nothing while he's in power.

Then you get Dion who's green shift is a thinly veiled revenue generator for his Ontario plans.

Then we get Ignatieff who starts talking about the Tar Sands and cap and trade.

In all of this time the Federal Liberal's have never even had the common courtesy to talk to Albertan's to see if they can understand us.

The NEP was the sole cause of that? Apparently the other global factors had nothing to do with any of that right?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Parallex

You know that the Conservative Party climate change plan includes Cap-and-Trade right? Go to Environment Canada and look up the Tories Climate Change Plan (it's called "Turning the Corner") it includes setting a price on Carbon and setting up an emissions trading market AKA Cap-and-Trade.

The C&T isnt the whole issue though, as I dont think at its core that even the big oil companies are totally adverse to it. Its all about "will it be implemented equally" to all industries, and more importantly, to all provinces. There have been many suggestions that the Liberal version, once again, completely hammers the West with it, while not applying the same standards to many of the bigger companies in the East.

Now I admit I am not completely familiar with either version, and I already know what Jumpin Jack would do, but what i do know is that the CPC has its power base in the West and is far far more unlikely tounfairly place the burden on their strength to pander to the East.

I know the Liberals track record when it comes to this kind of stuff, and in comparison to the CPC, it's insidious at its core.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Slava

The NEP was the sole cause of that? Apparently the other global factors had nothing to do with any of that right?

Look at the numbers man...Alberta was way way way more affected in those 5 years than anywhere else in the world really, and the only mitigating factor different than all these other places was indeed...the NEP. So to answer your question....sole reason things went South? No. Sole reason things went South to the degree it did? Absolutely.

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by Slava

There we go. Only 104 pages on my settings to get to something that happened 30 years ago to explain things. Its weird how people here can forget about Brian Mulroney and his escapades (and the original guy who formed a coaltion with Quebec separtists), but can't let go of something that happened decades ago.

The reality is that politics NEVER lead to dramatic change at the household level.

In the case of the NEP, it did. People remember losing their houses. I remember helping neighbors (plural....) leave town. I remember losing the family car. I can't think of another single policy that had that kind of immediate impact.

Had Trudeau's plan led to terrific prosperity in Alberta, we'd probably be pretty staunch Liberal country. Instead, it led to terrific destruction......which is why I tend to forgive people that still base (some) of their voting choices on the NEP.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Look at the numbers man...Alberta was way way way more affected in those 5 years than anywhere else in the world really, and the only mitigating factor different than all these other places was indeed...the NEP. So to answer your question....sole reason things went South? No. Sole reason things went South to the degree it did? Absolutely.

Alberta was hit hard, but that doesn't mean it was due to the NEP, its correlation, not causation. I'm not getting into the whole issue of the royalty regime change in Alberta, but that didn't cause the drop from $147/bbl oil to $33/bbl either.

Did the NEP/royalty change help the issue? No. To say that they were the cause of the pain and suffering entirely though is completely false.

I also think that after 30 years you have to get past these things. A lot of the people who are voting today couldn't even tell you what the NEP was and why it was bad....its fear-mongering at its best!

[peter12]

Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated, which will always be as long as he abstains from the property of his citizens and subjects and from their women. But when it is necessary for him to proceed against the life of someone, he must do it on proper justification and for manifest cause, but above all things he must keep his hands off the property of others, because men more quickly forget the death of their father than the loss of their patrimony.

Machiavelli, The Prince

It's completely justifiable for Albertans to continue to punish the Liberal Party for the NEP. Induced poverty and humiliation are among the worst things to which a government can subject its citizens.

If using the NEP as a justifiable excuse to go anti-Liberal is fear-mongering, then Slava's position is pure masochism. Any centre-lefter or progressive with any conscience would be voting NDP at this point.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

No, what I'm saying is that if you look at the Liberal track record when it comes to this province there needs to be some justification for opening peoples trust levels. The Liberal Party dosen't do that, so should I be voting for the Liberal's on blind faith?

Should YOU vote for them, probably not. Should the people that they have reached out to and are basically small 'l' liberals for who the Liberals are working, probably yes.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Have you ever thought that people in Alberta have been staunch conservative supporters because even though things like the NEP happened years ago, the Liberal's have done nothing to prove that they're willing to engage Albertan's?

Yes. For some this may be the case but I don't think this is the case with nearly as many people as you think.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

And I agree that politician's can only do much, but Sadly the Liberal's have decided to do nothing or even worse, attack Alberta Industry in their platforms.

Attacked or attempted to begin necessary and meaningful dialogue about the potential, perceived, and real impacts of our industries?

Just because you think that they may not be doing anything for you does not mean they were not doing anything for any Albertans, that's pure rubbish.

In all honesty, I do believe that they are starting to do nothing in the Province. However, I believe this is a symptom rather than the problem. We've simply become a lost cause.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Thats your friends problems, not the provinces problems. Why ae your friends afraid to vote, considering tht the ballot is secret?

Oh no, they do vote and they vote conservative because they believe that is what they are suppose to do. As they are Albertans, it is Alberta's problem.

Originally Posted by Ark2

Let's all face facts here. For over a decade, the Liberals had a stranglehold on Ontario and they didn't need Alberta, so they didn't give a crap about this province...

Just because they don't bend over backwards to cater to YOUR needs, does not mean that they don't care about any or all Albertans.

Originally Posted by Ark2

So everyone that votes Conservative in Alberta is just a closed minded partisan that blindly votes for the CPC. Gotcha.

No, what I said was this:

Originally Posted by Addick

No, the attitude of the staunch Conservative voters in Alberta who only vote for one party because of what another party did years ago irrespective of what they are doing today is the big load.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Slava

Alberta was hit hard, but that doesn't mean it was due to the NEP, its correlation, not causation. I'm not getting into the whole issue of the royalty regime change in Alberta, but that didn't cause the drop from $147/bbl oil to $33/bbl either.

Did the NEP/royalty change help the issue? No. To say that they were the cause of the pain and suffering entirely though is completely false.

I also think that after 30 years you have to get past these things. A lot of the people who are voting today couldn't even tell you what the NEP was and why it was bad....its fear-mongering at its best!

Larf.

Then you explain to me. why...


Albertas unemployment rate went up more than everywhere else in the country.

Albertas bankruptcy rate was the highest in the world at the time.

Albertan's were hit to the tune of abut $15,000 EACH over the span of that program.

Alberta and Saskatchewan were the only 2 provinces that were net contributors to the feds.

All just a mere coincidence right?

Fear mongering? No.

Reality? Yes.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Larf.

Then you explain to me. why...


Albertas unemployment rate went up more than everywhere else in the country.

Albertas bankruptcy rate was the highest in the world at the time.

Albertan's were hit to the tune of abut $15,000 EACH over the span of that program.

Alberta and Saskatchewan were the only 2 provinces that were net contributors to the feds.

All just a mere coincidence right?

Fear mongering? No.

Reality? Yes.

Well do you think that the collapse of the price of oil and the provincial reliance on that for our economy explains almost every point there? I'm sure that 2008 had a similar impact, so how do you explain that without the NEP to fall back on?

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Larf.

Then you explain to me. why...


Albertas unemployment rate went up more than everywhere else in the country.

Albertas bankruptcy rate was the highest in the world at the time.

Albertan's were hit to the tune of abut $15,000 EACH over the span of that program.

Alberta and Saskatchewan were the only 2 provinces that were net contributors to the feds.

All just a mere coincidence right?

Fear mongering? No.

Reality? Yes.

You're right, the international market had nothing to do with it.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well do you think that the collapse of the price of oil and the provincial reliance on that for our economy explains almost every point there? I'm sure that 2008 had a similar impact, so how do you explain that without the NEP to fall back on?

No, I dont.

The huge drop in oil didnt come in until the NEP was no longer in effect. yes it started downwards shortly after the program was implemented, and would have had some effect on the Alberta economy, but not to the degree that we saw.

This is from Wiki but it explains it just as it was always explained to me...

the decline in world crude oil prices that began only a few months after the NEP came into force, the graph of long-term oil prices show that prices adjusted for inflation did not drop below pre-1980s levels until 1985. Given that the program was cancelled in 1986, the NEP was active for five years which are amongst the most expensive for oil prices on record and the NEP prevented Alberta's economy from fully realising those prices

And to put some perspective on it...

It has been estimated by a number of different scholars that Alberta lost between $50 billion and $100 billion because of the NEP

At the time Albertas entire population was just North of 2.2 million. Think about that.

[transplant99]

This may seem a bit extreme but anyone defending that policy should be giving their heads a shake.

It destroyed the lives of thousands...its not some fairy tale either. I saw it and lived through it....and one party alone was responsible for it.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I really disagree with what you're saying. Basically if I'm reading it right, you're stating that Alberta should be willing to vote for the Liberal's on faith that if we do the Libs will then shift their platform to include Alberta concerns.

Thats reverse logic. If you want to be a national ruling party then you have to try to fit every region into your platform. The cons have done a fairly good job of that, the Liberal's haven't.

I don't believe that the statement should be "Vote for us and we'll include you", instead it should be "This is why you should vote for us because we will include you". Its like the T.V. shows where the guy kicks the crap out of his wife and then drops to his knees crying and says "Don't leave me baby, I can change" then in the next episode it opens with a backhand slap across her face.

.

That's not really what I meant. I am just saying that a vote that is flexible is more powerful in the eyes of politicians than one that is pre-determined. The ability to take something away is a very effective form of discipline. The federal parties have pretty much learned that Alberta has nothing to take away from them - even the Conservatives don't need to worry much. If one day this changes, I think Alberta will become much more influential in the federal level.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Addick

Should YOU vote for them, probably not. Should the people that they have reached out to and are basically small 'l' liberals for who the Liberals are working, probably yes.

Thats thier right to vote for whoever they want, They're not in anyway being forced to vote conservative at all. Nobody is going to show up at someones house with pitchforks screaming for their head. Thats the idea behind a secret ballot.

Originally Posted by Addick

Yes. For some this may be the case but I don't think this is the case with nearly as many people as you think.

I'd say that Liberal results in this province prove that wrong. They've decreased over the years instead of increased, that means they're bleading voters by not engaging.

Originally Posted by Addick

Attacked or attempted to begin necessary and meaningful dialogue about the potential, perceived, and real impacts of our industries?

Sure doesn't sound like attempting to put in meaningful dialogue, when both Ignatieff and Dion put it in their platform and it was followed by angry premier statements saying hands off. If its in their election plank then they intend to implement it without consultation at a provincial level.

Originally Posted by Addick

Just because you think that they may not be doing anything for you does not mean they were not doing anything for any Albertans, that's pure rubbish


In all honesty, I do believe that they are starting to do nothing in the Province. However, I believe this is a symptom rather than the problem. We've simply become a lost cause.

Then if they've given up on the province and refuse to engage the province then whats the point of voting for them, blind faith that if you vote for them they'll give you some crumbs doesn't sound logical.

Originally Posted by Addick

Oh no, they do vote and they vote conservative because they believe that is what they are suppose to do. As they are Albertans, it is Alberta's problem.

No thats not Alberta's problem thats your friends problem, and I find that to be a lame excuse.

Originally Posted by Addick

Just because they don't bend over backwards to cater to YOUR needs, does not mean that they don't care about any or all Albertans.




No, what I said was this:

They don't bend over for Alberta at all, and they don't care, You even said it yourself, they've given up on the province, which means they don't care about voter results, and they're not attempting to do anything to get a beach head of breakthrough.

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

That's not really what I meant. I am just saying that a vote that is flexible is more powerful in the eyes of politicians than one that is pre-determined. The ability to take something away is a very effective form of discipline. The federal parties have pretty much learned that Alberta has nothing to take away from them - even the Conservatives don't need to worry much. If one day this changes, I think Alberta will become much more influential in the federal level.

Quoted for Truth.

Well said.