Career Choices and Regrets..

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

Not true at all, you should see what most banks are willing to give you if you've been accepted into a professional program like Medicine. You might argue its based on projected future income, but that projection is entirely based on the education.

This is kind of what I was getting at. My bank has been extremely accommodating due to my "potential". For loans, credit, mortgage etc. they placed me on their highest earning bracket based solely on my education and earning potential. Before I was on this path, the bank was less than helpful.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

Do you mean a professional student loan? Those are incredibly different then small buisness loan.

Nope, I'm talking about lines of credit, mortgages...etc.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

Not true at all, you should see what most banks are willing to give you if you've been accepted into a professional program like Medicine. You might argue its based on projected future income, but that projection is entirely based on the education.

At the end of the day, the banks only care about 2 things when qualifying you for a loan:

1.) your ability to pay it back
2.) if you default, what you have as collateral.

A person in medicine can get a pretty hefty loan because the bank is confident a doctor will never be unemployed and will at least make enough money to pay them back. It's not so much based on education as it is on how secure your future job will be. It's just that this usually goes hand in hand with education.

I'm willing to bet that if there was ever a situation where 2 people apply for a loan, one has a masters degree, and the other person has no formal education, both have the same job and have worked at the job for a long time, and both have the same assets, they'll qualify for the same loan.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

At the end of the day, the banks only care about 2 things when qualifying you for a loan:

1.) your ability to pay it back
2.) if you default, what you have as collateral.

A person in medicine can get a pretty hefty loan because the bank is confident a doctor will never be unemployed and will at least make enough money to pay them back. It's not so much based on education as it is on how secure your future job will be. It's just that this usually goes hand in hand with education.

I'm willing to bet that if there was ever a situation where 2 people apply for a loan, one has a masters degree, and the other person has no formal education, both have the same job and have worked at the job for a long time, and both have the same assets, they'll qualify for the same loan.

The point being made was that an education CAN help as consideration when securing a loan, not your point where both can be equivocal given special qualifiers.

You contradict the point of your second paragraph with its last sentence.

[Mad Mel]

I started my career in forestry twenty years ago. I was never about money, I wanted to be outdoors and live in a small town where I could go fishing all the time. No way did I want some sucker office job working in the city.

At some point it became apparent that I had a natural aptitude for computing, and particularly geographic information systems. Slowly but surely, I transitioned to the office. Skills got better. By the ten year mark I was working in downtown Calgary. Ten years after that, still the same thing, only the city has changed. The truth is that I migrated my career down a different, office-based path and started becoming more about the money. So my regret is that the sucker office job working in the city is my reality, and will remain so.

To be clear, I actually really enjoy my job. I just would much prefer to live in the sticks somewhere to the city, and that's not an option for my career.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

The point being made was that an education CAN help as consideration when securing a loan, not your point where both can be equivocal given special qualifiers.

You contradict the point of your second paragraph with its last sentence.

Not really. I said it usually goes hand in hand. In the hypothetical situation, I'm assuming the two guys are exactly the same in every aspect except for their education. In reality, that rarely happens. But all I'm saying is yes, there is correlation between education and how much you can borrow from the bank. But it's correlation, not causation.

[Hanni]

Originally Posted by Berger_4_

I think there is too much pressure on kids to go to university right out of high school. I was in the top of my class all throughout my school career, but I just didn't have the desire to spend more time in a classroom. But all my teachers and my family were constantly bugging me about what school I was going to and what I was going to take and I finally just caved to the pressure. I should have just listened to my heart, but what can ya do.

I was right near the top all through school as well. The problem for me is that our school system is broken when it comes to the high end and low end spectrum kids, IMO. School was never a challenge, I didn't study once and still had a near 90 average in high school. Then University came and it was a challenge and I had absolutely no study habits. Which definitely contributed to my unhappiness. It's frustrating when you're used to everything coming easy and all of a it sudden doesn't anymore.

This wasn't the only reason University didn't work out for me. I really didn't enjoy what I was taking and probably could have found something I did, but at the time I just really wanted to be doing anything but sitting in class.

I really think we could do a much better job of preparing kids for their future from a much earlier age. Making sure they are challenged and teaching based on their strengths.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Hanni

I was right near the top all through school as well. The problem for me is that our school system is broken when it comes to the high end and low end spectrum kids, IMO. School was never a challenge, I didn't study once and still had a near 90 average in high school. Then University came and it was a challenge and I had absolutely no study habits. Which definitely contributed to my unhappiness. It's frustrating when you're used to everything coming easy and all of a it sudden doesn't anymore.

This wasn't the only reason University didn't work out for me. I really didn't enjoy what I was taking and probably could have found something I did, but at the time I just really wanted to be doing anything but sitting in class.

I really think we could do a much better job of preparing kids for their future from a much earlier age. Making sure they are challenged and teaching based on their strengths.

I had to exact same experience through grade school, but actually found University benefitted me in that way.

For once, I had to learn how to study and more importantly put in effort. The most valuable thing I learned in Uni is that not everything is easy, and I better get some work ethic instead of just getting by on a pretty good, natural skill set.

[Finner]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

Not true at all, you should see what most banks are willing to give you if you've been accepted into a professional program like Medicine. You might argue its based on projected future income, but that projection is entirely based on the education.

Maybe for a student line of credit, med/lawyers etc will likely qualify for a higher limit (but will still require a cosigner unless steady job) but otherwise nothing extra.

Banks do not "project" future income. Its what your income is now. They don't give a crap what you think you might earn 5 years from now.

If you walk in the door to buy a house, you need to match the ratios now, not 5 years from now, regardless of what education you have.

[Titan]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Make sure they read this as well: http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html

Maybe I should have looked into it further. I still like the advice about school v. work though.

[T@T]

I should have/could have been in the airforce, probably a little old now to be bombing Libya but I could have taught others.

[Knalus]

In regards to Education and career, this video (follow the link) is rather interesting considering this recent discussion.

http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2011/03...a-little-geek/

[Berger_4_]

Originally Posted by Hanni

I was right near the top all through school as well. The problem for me is that our school system is broken when it comes to the high end and low end spectrum kids, IMO. School was never a challenge, I didn't study once and still had a near 90 average in high school. Then University came and it was a challenge and I had absolutely no study habits. Which definitely contributed to my unhappiness. It's frustrating when you're used to everything coming easy and all of a it sudden doesn't anymore.

This wasn't the only reason University didn't work out for me. I really didn't enjoy what I was taking and probably could have found something I did, but at the time I just really wanted to be doing anything but sitting in class.

I really think we could do a much better job of preparing kids for their future from a much earlier age. Making sure they are challenged and teaching based on their strengths.

That's the exact same story for me too. Never had to study in high school and would still get honours, so it didn't matter. Then when I got to university, I had no idea how to study.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Finner

Maybe for a student line of credit, med/lawyers etc will likely qualify for a higher limit (but will still require a cosigner unless steady job) but otherwise nothing extra.

Banks do not "project" future income. Its what your income is now. They don't give a crap what you think you might earn 5 years from now.

If you walk in the door to buy a house, you need to match the ratios now, not 5 years from now, regardless of what education you have.

In the situation of getting a professional student loan, doctor>>>lawyer. Doctors have much less variation in starting pay than lawyers, and demand is such that unemployment is not a risk.

I've had friends from high school get large student loans based on their med school marks, and they didn't have co-signors.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Titan

Maybe I should have looked into it further. I still like the advice about school v. work though.

Yeah, I think its a worthwhile read as there are good ideas, but there are a lot of dangorous ideas. A few other books I've gone through are "A random walk down wall street" by Burton Makiel (its kind of dry, but very good and some witty humor) and "The Warren Buffet way" ... both are a little more oriented in the way of investing and stocks, but useful.

(The really "thick" book on investing is Ben Grahams book, but thats full blown out investing and numbers.)

/peter12 voice

I read RDPD... but read other books to balance it out. Its not a bad start, but a horrible base to go by. RDPD is dangorous... its over-enthusiasm is good to get you thinking about money beyond conventional means, but its very dangorous.

Work, and education, should be parts that contribute to your overall self and how you grow as a person to enjoy a good life. I think being educated does help you enjoy a better life (besides money)... and when it comes to money, whats the point in being a millionair if you have nothing to spend it on?

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by T@T

I should have/could have been in the airforce, probably a little old now to be bombing Libya but I could have taught others.

WRT "could" ... to work in the CF airforce, its not that easy. Its more than just applying. They look for certain qualifications and characteristics. (I used to work for the CF airforce, as a civilian engineer though.)

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by Berger_4_

That's the exact same story for me too. Never had to study in high school and would still get honours, so it didn't matter. Then when I got to university, I had no idea how to study.

I've almost graduated university and I still have no idea how to study!!

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by MickMcGeough

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Your experience is not universally applicable. When were you in university? What did you take?

Of my class of computer science majors that I've kept in touch with, there's one doing sales, there's one teaching something unrelated, there's one working a low-level bank job, there's one fixing VLTs, two have gone back to school to take something entirely different, and only two are actual software developers.

Did the non-developers get something out of university? Absolutely. Did the return match the time and money investment? Not a chance.

Safety net? My buddy is fixing VLTs. Nobody gives a #### that he's got a degree.

I'm not trying to tell anyone to not go to university. It's just not the silver bullet that my parents' generation thinks it is.

When I'm hiring: demonstrable skills, attitude, and even cultural fit all trump education. In a lot of fields you can acquire those skills at university. In a lot, you can't (or at least don't have to).


Not going to university could result in loss of self esteem, pregnancy, and falling in with the wrong crowd? Are you for real?

I commend you for following your students' careers after graduation. Do you think the results suggest that more effort should be put into matching the supply of computer scientists with the demand?

As for the other, perhaps you misunderstood what I was driving at. I said, or meant to say, that I have seen cases, where a delay in taking post secondary education, for reasons stated which may lead to the problems outlined, which in turn may hinder one's ability to go on to either technical school or university at a later date. I was also trying to make the point that the younger a person pursues his / her higher education, the better...for reasons of continuity, natural energy, resilience and relatively young age at which one peaks in creativity (note: I've changed it to between 35 and 45 years of age and even much younger for the most gifted).

Perhaps I was remiss in stating that technical school and university is not for everyone, and that there are many honorable jobs for those who do not attend. However, in my experience, many of these jobs, in the private sector, do not take full advantage of a person's natural talents and abilities, and don't pay adequately to allow a decent standard of living.

just my opinion

[ma-skis.com]

Originally Posted by MickMcGeough

Investing four years of the prime of your life (and thousands of dollars) into getting an education so that you have something "to fall back on" is possibly the worst advice I've ever seen given.

Far better to spend that time traveling, exploring your interests, dedicating yourself to something you love (frivolous or not), etc. Figure out what makes you tick before investing those years into education, because once they're gone, they're gone for good.

I'll assume that when you say worst, that you're exaggerating, because the worst advice I've heard people give is to go to LA and try their hand at acting while waiting tables in TGI Fridays until they are 40+ with no other options beyond waiting tables.

Traveling, exploring your interests, dedicating yourself to something you love is generally something most kids out of high school are not mentally and emotionally prepared to do. Many kids who take that gap year have very little to show for it, other than the realization that working retail or service sucks and they need to do something more productive. Maybe that realization is an important part of the process. Generaly, dedicating themselves to something they love is not something that happens for many kids. At 18, many of these kids still need some guidance to determine how to begin exploring the things they may like and how to go about doing it independently. A lot of this maturation process can occur in post secondary settings.

Safety net doesn't mean forever. And i guarantee that anyone who has gone to school has also has opportunities to travel / work / explore other interests whether it has been in the summer or another course they may have liked. I know several people who've travelled / studied / worked abroad during the post secondary process.

Considering that most adults change careers several times in their life, having something reliable isn't a crazy idea to help support you in between transitions. A safety net does not mean 4-6 years of some high academic university degree, it might be a 2 year stint in a trade that interests you, or a one year certification course in something else.

Besides, I don't know about you but 18-21 (assuming kids go to university right away) should not be prime years, as far as i'm concerned your prime years should be 25-55 when you're living the bulk of your life the way you want to. You might as well say that high school was when you peaked.

[bradster57]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

My GF is an accountant doing her CA and her hours right now are out of hand. On top of that she has everyone and their dog asking her to do their income tax.

Sorry came to the thread late. One of my pet peeves as a professional accountant is the perception that all accountants are good at tax. Not true! Yes, there are tax accountants, but the majority of us in industry don't know the first thing about tax! I spend most of my time doing reporting.

It also works to tell your friends this so they quit asking you to do their taxes!