Libya headed for civil war? Update: Gadhafi dead

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The Battle of Leyte Gulf really signaled the starting of the end of Battleships in terms of ship to ship effectiveness.

The Japanese were banking heavily on their Super Battleships to win the day (18.1 Inch rifles as oppossed to the American 16 Inch Guns)

Yamata was destroyed by concentrated air and submarine attacks.

Mushasi was overwhelmed by air and submarine attacks

Shinano was destroyed by the American Submarine Archer Fish.

I also remember that one of the Japanese Battleships was crippled or Destroyed by a American Destroyer via torpedo hits.

There were a couple of timing and tactical things during the Pacific war that definitely affected the short term outcome. (The long term outcome once Germany was defeated is pretty clear.) IIRC there was a Super Carrier that was sunk or bombed out at a very inopportune time, or it was just about to be finished and the Americans had already pushed too far for it to matter. Also several strategic battles, as well as the Japanese not being able to catch the American carriers in Pearl Harbor really hurt things.

That and the Japanese not being able to sink the Enterprise! (Picard is one hell of a captain. )

edit: Hilarious that our mods have made it so that Picard is automatically upper-cased. Stand up and take a bow, oh nerdy overlords of CP.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

There were a couple of timing and tactical things during the Pacific war that definitely affected the short term outcome. (The long term outcome once Germany was defeated is pretty clear.) IIRC there was a Super Carrier that was sunk or bombed out at a very inopportune time, or it was just about to be finished and the Americans had already pushed too far for it to matter. Also several strategic battles, as well as the Japanese not being able to catch the American carriers in Pearl Harbor really hurt things.

That and the Japanese not being able to sink the Enterprise! (Picard is one hell of a captain. )

edit: Hilarious that our mods have made it so that Picard is automatically upper-cased. Stand up and take a bow, oh nerdy overlords of CP.

I think that your talking about Midway where the American's caught the Japanese in a bad position and managed to destroy the majority of their fleet carriers and their best pilots.

Basically by the time Midway came around the Japanese believed that they were un beatable and because of that their scouting was incredibly poorly thought out and the American's with far fewer carriers managed to slip into a position to engage the Japanese Navy.

Its also important to note that without the sacrifice of American Torpedo Squadron 8 (I think) the Japanese Carriers probably would have survived and the war could have ended differently.

Because of Midway the Japanese started the slow roll back leading to the great Marianas turkey shoot which pretty well finished Japanese Naval aviation.

[IliketoPuck]

Also IIRC the Japanese had a strong advantage in air to air combat at the start of the war because the Zero far out classed the American fighter. Once the p-52 Mustang came in, that helped tip the scales further in Americas favor.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Also IIRC the Japanese had a strong advantage in air to air combat at the start of the war because the Zero far out classed the American fighter. Once the p-52 Mustang came in, that helped tip the scales further in Americas favor.

The zero was faster more maneuverable and had a faster climb rate and turn rate then anything the American's had during the start of the second world war. But that came with a price. The Japanese didn't armor the zero, they didn't have self sealing fuel tanks, and while the Mustang was a far superior fighter, the U.S. fighter that turned the tide was the F6F hellcat

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Also IIRC the Japanese had a strong advantage in air to air combat at the start of the war because the Zero far out classed the American fighter. Once the p-52 Mustang came in, that helped tip the scales further in Americas favor.

The Mustang had very limited use in the Pacific theatre, it was aircraft like the F-4U Corsair and P-38 that really helped take the fight to the Zero.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by transplant99

If the argument is "its a different President now"....then that's laughable. The end result is the same and whether the people of either country is better off afterwards or not, at least it is up to them to decide that. Something that simply could not happen otherwise.

While I'm sure you think the "it's a different President now..." is laughable, it does actually make a difference.

Like him or lump 'em, very few people in the world believe that the current administration is a bunch of lying, warmongering, moneygrubbing, oil-chasing weasels.

Can't say so much about the last bunch. Nobody believed those guys. Turned out they had a good reason.

And also, the big difference is of course that this is not an invasion. If Yank troops were massing in the 10's of thousands at the border, there would be a different reaction. It would look a lot like the reaction they got last time they were saddling up.

[mikey_the_redneck]

The more this goes on the more I tend to think that "no fly zone" was an innocent sounding excuse to launch an invasion...

If that is the case then the U.N. is becoming a monster that has evolved from a humanitarian/peacekeeping apparatus to waging war on sovereign nations.

[transplant99]

While I'm sure you think the "it's a different President now..." is laughable, it does actually make a difference.

Like him or lump 'em, very few people in the world believe that the current administration is a bunch of lying, warmongering, moneygrubbing, oil-chasing weasels.

Can't say so much about the last bunch. Nobody believed those guys. Turned out they had a good reason.

In the end, the results are the same...just no denying that. And thats only IF they get Khadafi. Hopefully they learned their lesson from the 91 fiasco.

And also, the big difference is of course that this is not an invasion. If Yank troops were massing in the 10's of thousands at the border, there would be a different reaction. It would look a lot like the reaction they got last time they were saddling up.

Perhaps, but again times have changed. The ability to comminicate to the masses from any single organizer allows for a totally different dynamic that never existed before. Of course knowing that they are already organized on the ground and the obvious change of attitude spreading throughout that part of the world in regards to the despots involved, makes no ground troops a much easier call than it would have been even a decade ago. Just something as simple as gathering intel on the ground from rebels/opposition is now available in a way it has never been. They have replaced ground troops in a way. It's an amazing and truly fascinating change in how these sort of things will be determined moving forward. Just think how it was when Mubarek tried to "shutdown the internet"...the outside was still able to get minute by minute updates. It's a new world.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

The more this goes on the more I tend to think that "no fly zone" was an innocent sounding excuse to launch an invasion...

If that is the case then the U.N. is becoming a monster that has evolved from a humanitarian/peacekeeping apparatus to waging war on sovereign nations.

Hard to invade a country when there is no one...you know...enetring the country.

Right now this is just air support for the rebels that will hopefully allow them to find and eliminate Ka-Daffy.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Like him or lump 'em, very few people in the world believe that the current administration is a bunch of lying, warmongering, moneygrubbing, oil-chasing weasels.

Are you sure about that?

I wonder if Afghan people think Obama is so friendly?

I really doubt that Obama's presidency has changed the minds of the international community with respect to their negativity toward America. He has at the very least maintained the George W. Bush wars in the ME, and on some fronts even expanded wars into Pakistan, Yemen etc.

And they gave him the Nobel Peace Prize !!!.......total hypocrisy.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The zero was faster more maneuverable and had a faster climb rate and turn rate then anything the American's had during the start of the second world war. But that came with a price. The Japanese didn't armor the zero, they didn't have self sealing fuel tanks, and while the Mustang was a far superior fighter, the U.S. fighter that turned the tide was the F6F hellcat

I do remember reading about that, so many years ago though. Still very fascinating that something so small could make such a big difference. From what I remember, American planes could be virtual bullet sponges because of the fuel tanks. The problem for the Japanese if I recall as well was that the tanks didn't have a bladder that collapsed as the fuel was spent, so vapors collected in the fuel tanks making them highly explosive?

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Hard to invade a country when there is no one...you know...enetring the country.

Right now this is just air support for the rebels that will hopefully allow them to find and eliminate Ka-Daffy.

It seems there are hundreds of special forces, oops I mean “defence advisors” already operating in Libya.


http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=78009

The United States, Britain and France have sent several hundred “defence advisors” to train and support the anti-Gadhafi forces in oil-rich Eastern Libya where “rebels armed groups” have apparently taken over.

[burn_this_city]

The eyes and ears of Pakistan..? Hmmmmm.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

It seems there are hundreds of special forces, oops I mean “defence advisors” already operating in Libya.


http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=78009

The United States, Britain and France have sent several hundred “defence advisors” to train and support the anti-Gadhafi forces in oil-rich Eastern Libya where “rebels armed groups” have apparently taken over.

What is it you have a problem with? are you afraid of the UN policing the world?

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by T@T

What is it you have a problem with? are you afraid of the UN policing the world?

I'd be terrified of the UN policing the world. Fortunately the UN is a totally neutered organization.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

It seems there are hundreds of special forces, oops I mean “defence advisors” already operating in Libya.


http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=78009

The United States, Britain and France have sent several hundred “defence advisors” to train and support the anti-Gadhafi forces in oil-rich Eastern Libya where “rebels armed groups” have apparently taken over.

You have a hell of a source there.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by transplant99

In the end, the results are the same...just no denying that. And thats only IF they get Khadafi. Hopefully they learned their lesson from the 91 fiasco.

But there is denying that. The results won't be the same. The Americans aren't going in there to install their handpicked corrupt boss, and they aren't going to be standing on every street corner with guns in their hands.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Are you sure about that?

I am sure about that. Obama has a better international reputation than Bush. It's like night and day. If you can't see that then I don't know what to say.

[billybob123]

I think CC and ILtP are ignoring the key role played in defeating the Japanese Navy at the Battle of Midway by Charlton Heston.

[Barnes]

You can bet JTF2 are also there. They have also recently been in Nepal, Zaire, Rwanda, Tanzania, Peru, Congo, Sudan, Bolivia, and Iraq. All countries we have yet to invade.

Soon we will have Task Force Arrowhead available for situations like this too.