Libya headed for civil war? Update: Gadhafi dead

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

CC, when we are talking about Qatar and some other Arab countries being involved in the NFZ, what is their actual involvement? Do they actually have modern enough equipment to contribute, or is it more symbolic than anything?

I don't think it would be offensively significant. Their pilots aren't on the same level as the American's French British and Canadian, and I don't believe their up to date on the data links that would be required to operate with a NATO AWACS.

I would expect that they'll get a quiet area to patrol, and they'll supply logistical aid to the Nato warplanes through their transportation aircraft.

But I don't believe that we'll see them in a position of being forced to fire on Iraqi air and ground forces, they're role is almost ceremonial.

[transplant99]

The big difference for me, is that the Iraqi people hadn't broken out in a massive revolt.

Much like Iran right now, anytime anyone started to speak out against the government they were jailed or "disappeared". There is a long long list of these things under Hussein.

From what I remember the Iraqi's had a pretty good standard of living and probably lived an alright life if they kept their heads down and were part of the majority ethnic population.

Yep...shut up, do as I say and I wont kill you....even while I am torturing and raping your daughters. Sweet deal eh?

The USA had a chance to take the moral high ground when there was a revolt by the Kurds and I believe the Shiat in the Delta after Desert Storm, but they passed.

Agreed, but again that wasn't just the "USA" that was another UN backed action.

As the saying goes 'you can take a horse to water but you can't make them drink'.
For the most part the Iraqi's weren't thirsty, the Libyans are.

In 1991 to even 2003 there was no Twitter/Facebook that allowed for mass communication like we have today, and I believe this is the single largest difference in why we are seeing so many revolts all springing up at once. Those who want to, know they are not alone and as always in these things a show of force by many makes it so much easier to be a part of it.

Iraqi's before the invasion may have had it better than many in the Arab world, but it certainly doesn't mean they had it good. I still believe we will not know the full ramifications of what happened in 03 for another 12-15 years. I see no way they could be worse off in the end however, and see way more opportunities for them to be so much better off. Same with what is happening in Lybia now, Egypt last month and all the other states in the ME that are or will do the same thing.

Freedom is a universal desire....many need help attaining it, others do not.

I know there will likely always be countries where this becomes unattainble for a variety of reasons, but where it is needed and wanted, assistance should be given.

[CaptainCrunch]

Just a little bit more. The whole operation is being run off of the U.S.S. Mount Whitney which is designated as a Command and Control ship.

It is also the Flag Ship of the U.S. Fleet and a different concept from the past where Fleet Command would be based on standard Cruisers or Battleships.

Some Naval Purists hate the concept because it puts your entire senior command structure in one killable basket

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Mount_Whitney_(LCC-20)

[worth]

hmm wrong thread

[IliketoPuck]

On a completely unrelated topic, do the Americans still use Battleships in their fleet? Or has it now gone mostly to missle cruisers/carriers/destroyers? Theres just something romantic about the big battleships roaming the seas blowing stuff up from miles away.

[worth]

Battleships are obsolete. I'm pretty sure the Americans don't use any. I don't think anyone uses them anymore.

[IliketoPuck]

I know they are obsolete as being the main bad ass of any fleet, but I was under the impression that a few were still operational? They can still carry missles and put the hurt on.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

I know they are obsolete as being the main bad ass of any fleet, but I was under the impression that a few were still operational? They can still carry missles and put the hurt on.

The last of the battleships was retired from service with the last two the Iowa and Missouri being decommission in 2006 after spending some time as reserve units not at sea.

While they boasted some pretty awesome firepower including 9 16 inch guns that could fire shells the size of basically phone booths 25 miles, and they did have tomahawk cruise missiles added later, the shore bombardment abilities were replaced by Marine Harriers and missile cruisers.

[IliketoPuck]

I used to read lots of WW2 and WW1 books about various naval battles, and the big ones where battleships got to go toe to toe I found fascinating.

Back to Qatar though. Their involvement as you say will be almost purely logistical, so it is symbolic of them joining forces with the west to help over throw a tyrant? Or is it purely in their own self interest?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I kind of figured that the Canadians would get bomber escort missions. Even though the CF-18 is a very good air to ground platform, I doubt that there is much left to hit on the ground at the moment.

The article said they were escorting fighters, but even so, if they're out of ground targets, what would the bombers be doing that would require escort?

[Vulcan]

In 1991 to even 2003 there was no Twitter/Facebook that allowed for mass communication like we have today, and I believe this is the single largest difference in why we are seeing so many revolts all springing up at once. Those who want to, know they are not alone and as always in these things a show of force by many makes it so much easier to be a part of it.

I agree times have changed and this part of fighting for freedom is great but in all affairs timing is everything, and interfering in Iraq was like getting a beaten wife to leave her husband and two weeks later she's back with him again.

In Libya, I expect the allies to be in and out in a comparatively short time, because the people are united in their thirst and want democracy. If we had of waited for the Iraqi people to move, the USA would probably be in and out quickly too, instead of spending trillions of dollars to enrich the fat cat friends of Bush.

Freedom is a universal desire....many need help attaining it, others do not.

I know there will likely always be countries where this becomes unattainble for a variety of reasons, but where it is needed and wanted, assistance should be given. __________________

I agree, freedom is a universal desire but despite what Bush said, this was all about getting rid of Saddam without thinking of the consequences, where he helped spend the USA into their financial trouble by it becoming a long drawn out affair. You hit the nail on the head though when you said 'where it is needed and wanted. The wanted part was the problem and led to the trumped up evidence of WMD.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by SebC

The article said they were escorting fighters, but even so, if they're out of ground targets, what would the bombers be doing that would require escort?

Four CF-18s along with 2 of our CC-150 Polaris in-flight refueling planes were sent.

The CF-18s were sent in to patrol and escort other fighters and now MacKay is saying they did open fire while on patrol.

http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/an/lo...b=WinnipegHome

[HPLovecraft]

Interesting to hear Medvedev berate Putin after Putin's "crusades" comment.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Barnes

The CF-18s were sent in to patrol and escort other fighters and now MacKay is saying they did open fire while on patrol.

... and not on ground targets. Bada**.

[IliketoPuck]

Black Knight 7 - FOX THREE!

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Barnes

The CF-18s were sent in to patrol and escort other fighters and now MacKay is saying they did open fire while on patrol.

http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/an/lo...b=WinnipegHome

Awaiting confirmation if there was any confirmed kill involved.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by transplant99

In 1991 to even 2003 there was no Twitter/Facebook that allowed for mass communication like we have today, and I believe this is the single largest difference in why we are seeing so many revolts all springing up at once. Those who want to, know they are not alone and as always in these things a show of force by many makes it so much easier to be a part of it.

This is actually the topic of my thesis. Internet protest organization has been going on since the mid 90's and the Zapatista movement in Mexico, but social tools with viral-spread capabilities make it more accessible. Also, mashups and hashtag use combined with creative API's and mobile devices have further enabled social media-based political upheaval.

In fact, i would say it's more mobile devices and smart phones that have allowed for this sort of mass communication. Live, real-time coverage can be captured, documented and exported abroad now without having to do transfers and uploading on desktop PC's in a static location.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by SebC

The article said they were escorting fighters, but even so, if they're out of ground targets, what would the bombers be doing that would require escort?

Looking for targets of opportunity.

Basically you circle around til you see a vehicle column, then you bomb the everloving crap out of it.

[Yasa]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Black Knight 7 - FOX THREE!

Why we are on this particular mission, we'll never know. But I do know, here today, that the Black Knights will emerge victorious once again.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

I used to read lots of WW2 and WW1 books about various naval battles, and the big ones where battleships got to go toe to toe I found fascinating.

Back to Qatar though. Their involvement as you say will be almost purely logistical, so it is symbolic of them joining forces with the west to help over throw a tyrant? Or is it purely in their own self interest?

The Battle of Leyte Gulf really signaled the starting of the end of Battleships in terms of ship to ship effectiveness.

The Japanese were banking heavily on their Super Battleships to win the day (18.1 Inch rifles as oppossed to the American 16 Inch Guns)

Yamata was destroyed by concentrated air and submarine attacks.

Mushasi was overwhelmed by air and submarine attacks

Shinano was destroyed by the American Submarine Archer Fish.

I also remember that one of the Japanese Battleships was crippled or Destroyed by a American Destroyer via torpedo hits.