The Ongoing Coyotes Sale Thread

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

Ok... but the bond money will still be released and the deal will close. Which is what I'm trying to say.

Alright, but that still does not change the fact that the way the money is being paid out of taxpayers pockets is wrong. Even if the deal closes I don't see how Goldwater can lose their case with the law on their side.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

Ok... but the bond money will still be released and the deal will close. Which is what I'm trying to say.

Goldwater had a revenue of $2.3 million last year.. They're going against a monster with an already VERY weak argument. This is all face time for them

Explain how they have a weak argument? They are totally right.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Alright, but that still does not change the fact that the way the money is being paid out of taxpayers pockets is wrong. Even if the deal closes I don't see how Goldwater can lose their case with the law on their side.

The money is coming out of the tax payers pockets?? Well so will the costs of not having the team there paying the Arena management costs... which are $25 million a year!

HELLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

If the team leaves it's FAR worse for the tax payers. There's nothing more funny to me then to see Canadians caring about the poor little tax payers of Glendale arizona.. When they clearly don't understand the consequences of the team leaving.

[tjinaz]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=6225855

They have multiple sources saying this will go through.

If Atlanta has two potential owners and the Phoenix sale goes through...

[greyshep]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

I lived and work in the west valley and have probably spent over 6-7000 in Glendale this year alone.. I have no skin?

It's narrow minded to believe that by the team leaving helps Glendale.. are you nuts???? It's a no win for Glendale but the loss is far less if the team stays.

Yes I understand its a no win, but it can also be argued that the loss could be far greater to the taxpayer if they let the deal go through.

Do you pay local taxes in Glendale then? Are you suggesting that buying lunch in that area each day means you are now a taxpayer and have your own skin in the deal??

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by JBR

Good thing you put your name on that, I can bet everyone was just dying to steal this gem......


That said, I'm still hopeful that either a deal will get done to keep the Coyotes in the the Desert, or move them to KC or SW Ontario.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

The money is coming out of the tax payers pockets?? Well so will the costs of not having the team there paying the Arena management costs... which are $25 million a year!

HELLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

If the team leaves it's FAR worse for the tax payers

Still does not change the fact that you can't use that money to help somebody buy the team, it is illegal and wrong. How much money they will lose by the team leaving has nothing to do with it.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by tjinaz

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=6225855

They have multiple sources saying this will go through.

If Atlanta has two potential owners and the Phoenix sale goes through...

Don't believe anything you hear coming out of Atlanta until the Phoenix deal is settled.

[Joborule]

I would be surprised if Atlanta picks up some new owners that want to stay. Atlanta is such a tough sell if it's not football, if NBA basketball is any indication. Nevertheless if they stay and the Thrashers get several years of playoff hockey down the road, maybe that market will finally gain enough support.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

The money is coming out of the tax payers pockets?? Well so will the costs of not having the team there paying the Arena management costs... which are $25 million a year!

HELLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

If the team leaves it's FAR worse for the tax payers. There's nothing more funny to me then to see Canadians caring about the poor little tax payers of Glendale arizona.. When they clearly don't understand the consequences of the team leaving.

Of course this is neither here nor there to the law, the law suit will center solely around whether tax money is being used for a private interest and thus breaches state law. Even if it is the best idea in the world and saves the state billions, cures cancer and puts out the reactors in Japan, it will still be illegal if tax money is being used to subsidise the sale.

It will thus come down to whether estimates of parking revenue are realistic or not, if they can reasonably be expected to pay off the bonds with parking revenue it will go through, if not it won't.

[taxbuster]

[QUOTE=Bouw N Arrow;3024091]If the team leaves it's FAR worse for the tax payers. /QUOTE]

I'm not certain that the argument you present is persuasive: while it may be a side-issue it is not the main issue. The main issue is whether the CoG is conferring a benefit on MH through the deal structured as it is.

If the CoG cannot irrefutably substantiate that the amount paid to MH is (at this point) realizable in the future - no hindsight allowed here - then they are offside. It doesn't matter what the *purpose* of the payment is, or whether there are economic benefits being preserved. The law is clear: as a governing body they cannot confer a benefit on a private group.

If the revenues don't add up - they are providing that benefit.

It's not a political judgment (which is the argument that some daft lawyer named Becker was trying to make on Prime Time Sports to Bob McCown the other day - he was shot down by Bob) -- it's an economic one.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

Ok... but the bond money will still be released and the deal will close. Which is what I'm trying to say.

It will be released if they sell. With all due respect to Sidney Crosby's Hat, definitively making a statement about something like that is silly - that they will sell sometime next week.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

The money is coming out of the tax payers pockets?? Well so will the costs of not having the team there paying the Arena management costs... which are $25 million a year!

HELLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

If the team leaves it's FAR worse for the tax payers. There's nothing more funny to me then to see Canadians caring about the poor little tax payers of Glendale arizona.. When they clearly don't understand the consequences of the team leaving.

Wrong.

It's been proven time and time again that a pro sports team's impact on the local economy is grossly overrated. If the Coyotes leave for Winnipeg, life will go on in Glendale. They will not lose "millions" in taxpayer money as they proclaim. I still can't believe people actually buy that argument.

When the Jets left in 1996, the city did not go into a huge recession. The city did not become like Detroit, and have a mass exodus of people leaving for other parts of Canada. Life went on, and now Winnipeg is one of the fastest growing cities in Canada (for the last three years, at least).

Winnipeggers want an NHL team because, unlike Phoenix, we are passionate about hockey, and people would actually go to the games. It would be a huge morale boost to the city. Besides, I do not recall cities with NHL teams losing tens of millions of dollars each when the 2004-05 season was cancelled. All they have to do is go out and buy an AHL team to fill the loss of the Coyotes. Most people in Arizona probably would not even notice the change in the quality of hockey.

[calgaryred]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

Wrong.

It's been proven time and time again that a pro sports team's impact on the local economy is grossly overrated. If the Coyotes leave for Winnipeg, life will go on in Glendale. They will not lose "millions" in taxpayer money as they proclaim. I still can't believe people actually buy that argument.

When the Jets left in 1996, the city did not go into a huge recession. The city did not become like Detroit, and have a mass exodus of people leaving for other parts of Canada. Life went on, and now Winnipeg is one of the fastest growing cities in Canada (for the last three years, at least).

Winnipeggers want an NHL team because, unlike Phoenix, we are passionate about hockey, and people would actually go to the games. It would be a huge morale boost to the city. Besides, I do not recall cities with NHL teams losing tens of millions of dollars each when the 2004-05 season was cancelled. All they have to do is go out and buy an AHL team to fill the loss of the Coyotes. Most people in Arizona probably would not even notice the change in the quality of hockey.

i agree Phoenix would be great for the IHL or AHL, Atlanta on the other hand should just get out of the hockey business.

[ogre2010]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

The money is coming out of the tax payers pockets?? Well so will the costs of not having the team there paying the Arena management costs... which are $25 million a year!

HELLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

If the team leaves it's FAR worse for the tax payers. There's nothing more funny to me then to see Canadians caring about the poor little tax payers of Glendale arizona.. When they clearly don't understand the consequences of the team leaving.

This is a really good read lots of interesting info from when the arena was first bult.

http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/Phoe...s/articles.htm

I especially like this little tid bit.

Q. 8 How is the project going to be paid for?
The city proposes to issue a combined $180 million of general obligation and municipal property corporation bonds. Our assumptions at this point are that this $180 million loan would cost the city about $414 million over a 30-year period if we conservatively assume the $180 million is amortized over a 30-year period at a 6.5% interest rate. Annual debt payments beginning in Fiscal Year 2003-04 will be paid from sales taxes generated by the surrounding retail project, estimated at $224 million over 30 years. Parking and shared arena revenues will generate approximately $90 million in additional funding for debt payment over 30 years. The remaining $100 million over a 30-year period would be for general obligation (GO) debt payments to cover the cost of public improvements such as infrastructure and street improvements and park and open space elements included in the development project. This GO debt will be made from existing property tax collections, with no increase in the overall property tax rate.

If development of any portion of the accompanying retail/commercial project is delayed beyond 18 months of the schedule assumed in the Development Agreement, and as a result, a shortfall in tax revenues required to pay the debt service results, the developer will have to pay a portion of the shortfall.

In addition, the city will be seeking funding from the Tourism and Sports Authority (TSA), the entity which is using Proposition 302 monies to fund the football stadium, spring training facilities and youth sports facilities, to try to gain their participation in our funding of the arena. Glendale will also be seeking further assistance from the legislature in recognition of having saved hockey for Arizona. While the city is totally capable of funding this arena without the help of the TSA and the legislature, it will make the debt service easier if these two state groups can support Glendale’s efforts.
Just a q uick question. If they're already using the parking revenue around the arena to help pay off the arena how in the h*ll are they buying these rights from Hulszier to help pay for the bonds??

Sorry Bouw n Arrow but I don't think the Coyotes leaving are going to cost Glendale millions its the morons running the city.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Commish GB today: "Goldwater is making the sale of the bonds EXTREMELY difficult, if not IMPOSSIBLE."

[HotHotHeat]

This thread is like watching a debate between msnbc and fox news.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

This thread is like watching a debate between msnbc and fox news.

I'm CNN.

[MacGruber]

Originally Posted by troutman

I'm CNN.

So no one is paying attention to you? lol :P I kid I kid.

but not about CNN... boy are they being slapped around in the ratings.

[greyshep]

Originally Posted by ogre2010

This is a really good read lots of interesting info from when the arena was first bult.

http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/Phoe...s/articles.htm

I especially like this little tid bit.

Q. 8 How is the project going to be paid for?
The city proposes to issue a combined $180 million of general obligation and municipal property corporation bonds. Our assumptions at this point are that this $180 million loan would cost the city about $414 million over a 30-year period if we conservatively assume the $180 million is amortized over a 30-year period at a 6.5% interest rate. Annual debt payments beginning in Fiscal Year 2003-04 will be paid from sales taxes generated by the surrounding retail project, estimated at $224 million over 30 years. Parking and shared arena revenues will generate approximately $90 million in additional funding for debt payment over 30 years. The remaining $100 million over a 30-year period would be for general obligation (GO) debt payments to cover the cost of public improvements such as infrastructure and street improvements and park and open space elements included in the development project. This GO debt will be made from existing property tax collections, with no increase in the overall property tax rate.

If development of any portion of the accompanying retail/commercial project is delayed beyond 18 months of the schedule assumed in the Development Agreement, and as a result, a shortfall in tax revenues required to pay the debt service results, the developer will have to pay a portion of the shortfall.

In addition, the city will be seeking funding from the Tourism and Sports Authority (TSA), the entity which is using Proposition 302 monies to fund the football stadium, spring training facilities and youth sports facilities, to try to gain their participation in our funding of the arena. Glendale will also be seeking further assistance from the legislature in recognition of having saved hockey for Arizona. While the city is totally capable of funding this arena without the help of the TSA and the legislature, it will make the debt service easier if these two state groups can support Glendale’s efforts.
Just a q uick question. If they're already using the parking revenue around the arena to help pay off the arena how in the h*ll are they buying these rights from Hulszier to help pay for the bonds??

Sorry Bouw n Arrow but I don't think the Coyotes leaving are going to cost Glendale millions its the morons running the city.

Wow those must be some amazing parking revenues. They can do anything!