Is This Racism?

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by driveway

I'm absolutely not implying you should live with guilt, I'm merely pointing out that you have advantages you haven't earned because you are white and (presumably) male. You automatically have a better shot than members of minority groups. If you don't agree, I have to conclude you're either unobservant or willfully ignorant.

These so called advantages were accurate in past decades, but are a little overplayed nowadays.

We don't have any better "shot" than any other Canadian born minority who does well in school and has a good work ethic.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think that the biggest problem is that we have situations from one or two or five generations ago that groups still lean on as an excuse for not moving forward.

Yes, if a group or individual, offered support, denies that help and then claims their problems are someone else's fault, that person or group is an A-hole.

Yes the slave trade was horrible, and the treatment of natives were horrible, but isn't it time to quit blaming the past and move into the future. Let go of the anger and resentment and stop using it as a crutch.

Yes, it's totally time to move into the future, but the only way to do that is to recognize the results of the mistakes that were made in the past that continue to cause problems today. The slave trade and the resultant lack of wealth and education in the black population in America is the easy example. You can't just say "well, slave trade is over, we're equal now, y'all cool?"

The reason we shouldn't think or act that way is ultimately selfish. I don't want poor uneducated people to rob me. That would suck. One way to help prevent this is to support programs that bring opportunity into disenfranchised communities. I'm cool with my taxes going to programs that deal with alcoholism on reserves, I'm fine with affirmative-action type programs that might cost me a job to the benefit of a minority because I can get another job. The same many not be true for that minority member and I'm better off if he or she has a job.

The biggest problem on the other side is there is an institutional guilt that we try to absolve ourselves of by throwing money at it without any thought about how its going to be used. Both sides are guilty. But we're not doing anyone any favors by following the current course.

I disagree that there isn't any thought going into how the money is being used. Of course some of it is being wasted, some money is always going to be wasted, but there are dozens and dozens of groups working on very targeted programs and giving them money is exactly the right way to start solving the problem.

If you disagree with that, I'd be interested to hear your proposal on how to go about solving it.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

These so called advantages were accurate in past decades, but are a little overplayed nowadays.

We don't have any better "shot" than any other Canadian born minority who does well in school and has a good work ethic.

Once you add all those qualifiers you are almost to the point where your statement is not blatantly false.

Part of the disadvantages that minorities face in Canada is

a) They don't speak the language as well if they were not born here.
b) Their (out of country) education doesn't mean anything here.
c) Racial profiling of banks loaning money for houses in certain areas is influenced by race.
d) Even if they grow up in Canada, they have a much higher chance of growing up in a middle or lower class family/neighborhood, which automatically puts them at a disadvantage later in life.
e) Due to c) and d) they don't have as much access to good schooling, or extracurricular activities.

So if you totally discount the groups of minorities that do have a distinct disadvantage, then you are almost correct in saying that minorities have an equal shot.

Don't worry though, your position that you don't have an advantage is a very common one amongst dominant groups in society, so you are most certainly not along in your opinion. However, the statistics say you are far more wrong than you would like to believe.

[Kipperriffic]

I don't think in this case when a minority is doing "native only" game their intention is to be racist against all others. I think of it as this: Because they're a minority, them doing something like this is more of a solidarity thing. Just like "Black History" month. If, hypothetically, some centuries later the blacks were a majority in US and the racism was virtually gone, I think there won't be any big deal "Black History" month.
You'll notice also that majority, i.e. whites, don't do "white only" events. Why? Because there is no need for any idea of solidarity and looking out for some civil rights. And when we do see a "white only" event, it is usually from racists because why else would there be a need to do a white only event? There could be exceptions, but I hope you're getting my point. Its less likely that "white only" event organizer's intentions are harmless.

[RougeUnderoos]

Any white adult male in this society who can't make a go of it has only one person to blame. Or maybe three, if he includes his parents.

If you think you didn't get a job or a promotion because you are a white male, you failed, and you didn't get the job or the promotion because someone else was better than you. It's capitalism! That's what really counts.

On a related note... If you are a person that thinks you've been passed over just due to your white skin and ownership of a penis, you are probably an a$$hole, and that always comes through. That might be another reason to consider.

[Young-Sneezy]

jumping into this debate would be like jumping into a shark infested pool...


wait...is that racist against sharks?

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by driveway

It may be an exaggeration, but at most only a very, very slight one. I can't to be honest, think of a single minority group off the top of my head that hasn't at one time or another been exploited by European men.

No, it's a ridiculous exaggeration. You said that heterosexual white men have kept every other identifiable ethnic group down for hundreds, even thousands of years.

That's incorrect. Go ahead and prove your case though.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by driveway

I'm absolutely not implying you should live with guilt, I'm merely pointing out that you have advantages you haven't earned because you are white and (presumably) male. You automatically have a better shot than members of minority groups. If you don't agree, I have to conclude you're either unobservant or willfully ignorant.

That is flat out false. Apply for any job these days and they ask you to specify which minority group you belong to, if applicable. Why do you think that is? Let me tell you, it isn't so they can discriminate against you. Apply for a government job, and not only are you asked if you are a minority, but you are told that hiring may be entirely subject on whether or not you are a minority. Got that? In some cases, they won't even look at your application unless you are anything but a white male. As a white male in my early 20's living in Canada, what advantages have I ever had over other Canadian minorities? Not any. Yet, when applying for jobs, I have been discriminated against, and it is possible because of ignorant people like you.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Part of the disadvantages that minorities face in Canada is

a) They don't speak the language as well if they were not born here.
b) Their (out of country) education doesn't mean anything here.
c) Racial profiling of banks loaning money for houses in certain areas is influenced by race.
d) Even if they grow up in Canada, they have a much higher chance of growing up in a middle or lower class family/neighborhood, which automatically puts them at a disadvantage later in life.
e) Due to c) and d) they don't have as much access to good schooling, or extracurricular activities.

You are talking about immigrants here, not necessarily minorities. Outside of point C (which is completely unsubstantiated) every example that you have cited could just as easily apply to a white male immigrant for the Ukraine. Your post is very poorly thought out, but I can't help but think it is intentional. Don't worry, no one here thinks you are a racist. There's no reason to attempt to attribute every inequality in the world to racism.

[Winnie]

Originally Posted by Kipperriffic

If, hypothetically, some centuries later the blacks were a majority in US and the racism was virtually gone, I think there won't be any big deal "Black History" month.

then again, whites will be in the minority so it will be okay to have 'white history' month again. you know, to balance things out.

[Winnie]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Once you add all those qualifiers you are almost to the point where your statement is not blatantly false.

Part of the disadvantages that minorities face in Canada is

a) They don't speak the language as well if they were not born here.
b) Their (out of country) education doesn't mean anything here.
c) Racial profiling of banks loaning money for houses in certain areas is influenced by race.
d) Even if they grow up in Canada, they have a much higher chance of growing up in a middle or lower class family/neighborhood, which automatically puts them at a disadvantage later in life.
e) Due to c) and d) they don't have as much access to good schooling, or extracurricular activities.

So if you totally discount the groups of minorities that do have a distinct disadvantage, then you are almost correct in saying that minorities have an equal shot.

Don't worry though, your position that you don't have an advantage is a very common one amongst dominant groups in society, so you are most certainly not along in your opinion. However, the statistics say you are far more wrong than you would like to believe.

you're right. the opportunities for immigrants in canada are disgraceful. hopefully the country as a whole sorts this out and stops being so unaccommodating.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Any white adult male in this society who can't make a go of it has only one person to blame. Or maybe three, if he includes his parents.

If you think you didn't get a job or a promotion because you are a white male, you failed, and you didn't get the job or the promotion because someone else was better than you. It's capitalism! That's what really counts.

On a related note... If you are a person that thinks you've been passed over just due to your white skin and ownership of a penis, you are probably an a$$hole, and that always comes through. That might be another reason to consider.

I generally agree with this, just wanted to point out that there have been programs instituted that resulted in white males being passed over simply for being white males, typically through the use of a quota system. My memory is a bit hazy on this, but I believe the most notorious, at least in the US, was at the University of Michigan law school. There were basically x number of spots alloted for certain racial and gender profiles regardless of the qualifications of the individuals. The program didn't last long, but it certainly had the effect of using race as a predominant factor in deciding admissions, which IMO is not an intelligent way to create a diverse environment. Systems that use race as one of many factors get my support, a varied racial make-up, particularly in an educational environment, brings a breadth of viewpoints that enriches the experience for everyone. However, advancing race to the top of the list doesn't help anyone.

On a sidenote, I've always wondered what would happen if you filled out applications with a race that wasn't actually your own. I mean you don't send in headshots, and it seems theoretically possible to identify yourself as black despite your skin color being white (perhaps an adopted family, or maybe you're Snow "Informer!!!").

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Ark2

That is flat out false. Apply for any job these days and they ask you to specify which minority group you belong to, if applicable. Why do you think that is? Let me tell you, it isn't so they can discriminate against you. Apply for a government job, and not only are you asked if you are a minority, but you are told that hiring may be entirely subject on whether or not you are a minority. Got that? In some cases, they won't even look at your application unless you are anything but a white male. As a white male in my early 20's living in Canada, what advantages have I ever had over other Canadian minorities? Not any. Yet, when applying for jobs, I have been discriminated against, and it is possible because of ignorant people like you.

Seriously?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Ark2

You are talking about immigrants here, not necessarily minorities. Outside of point C (which is completely unsubstantiated) every example that you have cited could just as easily apply to a white male immigrant for the Ukraine. Your post is very poorly thought out, but I can't help but think it is intentional. Don't worry, no one here thinks you are a racist. There's no reason to attempt to attribute every inequality in the world to racism.

Just because it applies to all immigrants, not just ones that are visible minorities it makes those disadvantages less real? I bet first gen Eastern European immigrants from 40 years ago would disagree.

My post was intended to be a counter point to the post I quoted, which said that visible minorities have the same chances in life as the dominant groups in Canada. His point was only even close to valid because he discounted all imigrants, and those who couldn't get a good education/start in life because of factors (like the ones I listed).

Just because it is an inequality that you don't feel is related to overt racism, doesn't mean it doesn't affect peoples lives.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Winnie

you're right. the opportunities for immigrants in canada are disgraceful. hopefully the country as a whole sorts this out and stops being so unaccommodating.

So just because they have a better shot at life here than in XYZ country, that totally discounts any disadvantages they have when compared to white males in our society?

[Winnie]

Originally Posted by Rathji

So just because they have a better shot at life here than in XYZ country, that totally discounts any disadvantages they have when compared to white males in our society?

a country opens its arms to immigrants giving them a chance at living a life that was essentially impossible in their old country. that should be an example of the exact opposite of racism, yet it's turned into another example of how the white majority is holding people back.

[Sliver]

Well when you move to a country in which you aren't educated and don't speak the language, you are going to be at a disadvantage...I don't think that's anything we should be expected to solve for you.

I think many immigrants know the deal when they move here. From the ones I've met it seems to me they are setting their kids up for better lives, not necessarily themselves.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by valo403

Seriously?

Yeah. Maybe I am just ignorant, so please enlighten me. What advantages have I had over minorities that live in the same area and class as me?

[moon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Any white adult male in this society who can't make a go of it has only one person to blame. Or maybe three, if he includes his parents.

If you think you didn't get a job or a promotion because you are a white male, you failed, and you didn't get the job or the promotion because someone else was better than you. It's capitalism! That's what really counts.

The same could be said for any adult in this society male/female, white/black/yellow/green etc.

The amount of excuses tossed out by people from all areas of society today is pathetic. It seems that if you don't succeed the immediate thing to do is blame someone else.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Winnie

a country opens its arms to immigrants giving them a chance at living a life that was essentially impossible in their old country. that should be an example of the exact opposite of racism, yet it's turned into another example of how the white majority is holding people back.

If you want to call it "the white majority holding people back" then letting people move here for a better life is the exact opposite of racism. However, I am talking about disadvantages that these people face when they get here, and how in the big scheme of things could hurt their potential.

That doesn't mean it is racism for them to have those disadvantages, but it does mean there is inequality.

I am not blaming white people. They just happen to be the dominant group here.