Congresswoman and 17 others shot in Arizona - Page 20 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

stamphater · 01-09-2011, 08:58 PM

I consider myself to be pretty liberal - even by Canadian standards - but I don't really blame people who live in sketchy areas in the States for owning guns. Even going through ghetto areas of Phoenix and Los Angeles during the day is a scary experience. It's a lawless place and the cops really don't give a ##### about what happens to people in those areas.

As for the political side of the story; until Americans get it through their head that they need to pay taxes to improve impoverished areas like ghettos then nothing will get better.

Jordan! · 01-09-2011, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

The peace of mind thing?

Yeah, definitly.

Let me know when you need to go to South Phoenix for work.. and we'll talk. That's all I have to add here. I work for a company that serves low income people and regularly need to travel to impoverished neighborhoods that put to shame anything you've ever seen in your life.

When I'm home, I have no fear and 95% of the time have no fear at all but in a city of 4 mill people, there are more bad guys out there.. I don't own guns out of fear entirely I do enjoy just going to the range with family and friends here and there but I'm not going to lie and say that overall it does a certain sense of peace of mind. even if there's a minuscule chance i'd need to use a gun for such a thing.

I see your point, but I think you did look too deep into what I said

Generally, this is the best place i've ever lived and couldn't see myself living anywhere else.It's beautiful here

BigBrodieFan · 01-09-2011, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stamphater

I consider myself to be pretty liberal - even by Canadian standards - but I don't really blame people who live in sketchy areas in the States for owning guns. Even going through ghetto areas of Phoenix and Los Angeles during the day is a scary experience. It's a lawless place and the cops really don't give a ##### about what happens to people in those areas.

As for the political side of the story; until Americans get it through their head that they need to pay taxes to improve impoverished areas like ghettos then nothing will get better.

Huh? No one here has a choice of whether to pay taxes or what the tax money goes to.

frinkprof · 01-09-2011, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

Let me know when you need to go to South Phoenix for work.. and we'll talk. That's all I have to add here. I work for a company that serves low income people and regularly need to travel to impoverished neighborhoods that put to shame anything you've ever seen in your life.

When I'm home, I have no fear and 95% of the time have no fear at all but in a city of 4 mill people, there are more bad guys out there.. I don't own guns out of fear entirely I do enjoy just going to the range with family and friends here and there but I'm not going to lie and say that overall it does a certain sense of peace of mind. even if there's a minuscule chance i'd need to use a gun for such a thing.

I see your point, but I think you did look too deep into what I said

Generally, this is the best place i've ever lived and couldn't see myself living anywhere else.It's beautiful here

You have a much greater chance of dying in a car crash on your way to the most affluent neighbourhood in America than getting shot while visiting the poorest, yet people in America buy guns at a record pace and also put an increasing number of miles on their cars each year.

frinkprof · 01-09-2011, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

Huh? No one here has a choice of whether to pay taxes or what the tax money goes to.

False.

Politicians decide on where tax money goes and anyone can run for office (yes I know you aren't a citizen, so I should say most people). Furthermore, there are ballot measures and plebiscites in the US all the time, and while they are often a bungled process, they do have an impact on where tax money goes to.

BigBrodieFan · 01-09-2011, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frinkprof

False.

Politicians decide on where tax money goes and anyone can run for office (yes I know you aren't a citizen, so I should say most people). Furthermore, there are ballot measures and plebiscites in the US all the time, and while they are often a bungled process, they do have an impact on where tax money goes to.

My point was- we have to pay taxes regardless. We can't decide not to pay taxes. I took it the response meant that Americans can choose not to pay taxes if they were to 'help ghettos.' People can't decide which taxes to pay and which not to pay at their discretion. I can't say 'I am not paying payroll taxes, but I will pay the tax for the new furniture I just bought.'

frinkprof · 01-09-2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

My point was- we have to pay taxes regardless. We can't decide not to pay taxes. I took it the response meant that Americans can choose not to pay taxes if they were to 'help ghettos.' People can't decide which taxes to pay and which not to pay at their discretion. I can't say 'I am not paying payroll taxes, but I will pay the tax for the new furniture I just bought.'

I don't want to speak for the guy who originally posted about not paying taxes to improve ghettos, but I'm very sure that he did not mean it the way you interpreted it.

mikey_the_redneck · 01-09-2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeeBass

How many women get raped but are saved by having a gun? Probably "not an alarming rate" so as to justify needing a gun. "That would be over-reacting"

Works both ways doesnt it?

Just when I think you couldnt be any more stupid you totally redeem yourself. So only accidental deaths are all that matter?

Oh and there is a successful universal solution to the gun problem....No guns!

Well you see, if accidental gun death rates are low, it is simply not worth removing the right to own firearms, because as many previous posts have pointed out, as long as there is crime, there will be guns regardless of citizen gun bans. Prohibition simply doesn't work.

Just when I think you couldnt be any more stupid you totally redeem yourself. I never claimed that accidental deaths are all that matters.

longsuffering · 01-09-2011, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

T@T, I understand your point and would prefer to have this country abolish gun ownership entirely however in the real world bad guys will get guns if they want them.. period. For me, It's just there to have peace of mind... if my home alarm system goes off at night I know I'll have an option to protect myself, or if i'm at a drive thru banking maching I have a .380 in my middle console to protect myself. I do work in South Phoenix sometimes and I prefer to take my own car rather than the company car because I have my gun with me.

It's a sad fact but it does bring me peace of mind.. i'm not a right wing gun rights protecting, concealed carrying red neck here. I'm a guy who grew up in Canada, a Geek, who loves hockey... who has the option to purchase peace of mind.

Why the heck do people choose to live in places that they feel are so dangerous that they need to carry or own a gun to protect themselves?

I've lived in Canada, Russia and several other former Soviet republics and I've never felt that I needed to arm myself.

Tip: If it is unsafe where you live - MOVE

Calgaryborn · 01-09-2011, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by valo403

How exactly are you making the jump from the case you describe in paragraph one to the result for Canadians in paragraph two? A ruling allowing alien residents of the United States who are in possession of a green card to purchase guns doesn't mean that Canadian citizens who are not resident in the US and in possession of a green card to do the same. They are not the same thing, not even close.

The Constitution knows nothing about green cards. It provides constitutional protection for all people on American soil. That is the grounds on which the ACLU is fighting this case. There is no compelling reason to believe an alien on american soil with a gun is any more dangerous than a native born american.

If the ACLU wins the case all laws prohibiting aliens owning firearms will be struck down. The court will direct what limitations the State can impose on alien gun owners in their decision. I guess the question becomes: Am I protected by the Constitution when I am legally on American soil?

I agree the scope of this case is limited but, the ramifications are not.

Calgaryborn · 01-09-2011, 11:32 PM

Well Caitie Parker was a classmate of Loughner's so her twitter posts apparently are legit:

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/val...ed_shooter.php

Salisbury · 01-09-2011, 11:34 PM

To me this just makes (once again) it really clear, that ease of which anyone can own a gun in the USA, is the cause for this tragedy.
Look at it this way, the death rate (gun deaths per 100,000 )in USA is one of the highest in the world next to Brazil, places like Germany and the UK, where gun ownership is more difficult, have incredibly low gun death rates.

Jordan! · 01-10-2011, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Tip: If it is unsafe where you live - MOVE

It's not unsafe.. the only time I've felt unsafe is when I'm literally in the ghetto.. the option is there to have a gun safely stowed in my car, so why would I not?

the2bears · 01-10-2011, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Two points.

First point - Until you don't have to feel safe driving around with a loaded firearm any post about how great it is in Pheonix from you will be ignored or you will be slapped

Second point - I can't imagine ever having to purchase a weapong to feel peace of mind, that's the day I seriously evaluate where I am in life.

I've been living in the US for almost 10 years now, first in NJ, and for the last 6 years in CA. Throughout this time I have never lacked peace of mind, nor thought I needed to by a gun. In fact, since I'm not into hunting, I've never fired one at all.

Beerfest · 01-10-2011, 02:58 AM

Here's a link to Gabrielle Giffords youtube page, she only has two subscriptions, one to Congressman Ike Skelton and the other to Jared Lee Loughner..

Giffords youtube page
http://www.youtube.com/user/giffords2

Loughner's youtube page
http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

icarus · 01-10-2011, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I've lived in Canada, Russia and several other former Soviet republics and I've never felt that I needed to arm myself.

Tip: If it is unsafe where you live - MOVE

I agree, I've lived in a dodgy part of Cape Town where there were a lot of muggings and as part of my work I travelled to the townships of Guguletu and Khayelitsha (I've been in some dodgy parts of London late at night too), and I never thought that having a gun would help. If someone wanted to mug me, I'd probably just hand over my stuff. I couldn't bring myself to point a gun at someone and what if they called my bluff? I certainly couldn't bring myself to use the gun.

If I get mugged at some point in my life, and there's a fair chance it could happen no matter what city I am in, I would rather NOT have a gun on my person at that time because that just leads to all sorts of unpredictable scenarios. I'll just reluctantly hand over my stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

I do work in South Phoenix sometimes and I prefer to take my own car rather than the company car because I have my gun with me.

So if someone carjacked you in the projects, you'd rather be in your own car with a weapon than the company car? Give me the company car anyday. If I couldn't speed away safely I'd just say "fine, take it, it's not mine".

MrMastodonFarm · 01-10-2011, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the2bears

I've been living in the US for almost 10 years now, first in NJ, and for the last 6 years in CA. Throughout this time I have never lacked peace of mind, nor thought I needed to by a gun. In fact, since I'm not into hunting, I've never fired one at all.

That's good, but I was never suggesting it was all of America. I was simply talking to that one speciffic poster and his situation. I was never lumping all of the country into that post.

valo403 · 01-10-2011, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

The Constitution knows nothing about green cards. It provides constitutional protection for all people on American soil. That is the grounds on which the ACLU is fighting this case. There is no compelling reason to believe an alien on american soil with a gun is any more dangerous than a native born american.

If the ACLU wins the case all laws prohibiting aliens owning firearms will be struck down. The court will direct what limitations the State can impose on alien gun owners in their decision. I guess the question becomes: Am I protected by the Constitution when I am legally on American soil?

I agree the scope of this case is limited but, the ramifications are not.

The US Constitution provides protections for all people subject to US jurisdiction, it does not however provide rights to all such persons. For the same reason that Canadians who happen to be in the US on the second tuesday in Novemeber don't get to vote for the POTUS, Canadians are not extended 2nd Amendment rights simply due to their presence on American soil.

valo403 · 01-10-2011, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

It's not unsafe.. the only time I've felt unsafe is when I'm literally in the ghetto.. the option is there to have a gun safely stowed in my car, so why would I not?

Because odds are that you will harm yourself, someone you love, or an innocent person, rather than any of the criminals you think you're protecting yourself from?

Flashpoint · 01-10-2011, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

It's not unsafe.. the only time I've felt unsafe is when I'm literally in the ghetto.. the option is there to have a gun safely stowed in my car, so why would I not?

So your upside in that situation is that you could engage in a shootout from inside your car? That's a pretty grim scenario - especially in a residential area.

I mean short of a Mad Max style barricade, wouldn't it be easier to just put your foot down and try to drive away?