Congresswoman and 17 others shot in Arizona

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by evman150

Calgarybornagain is predictably trying to pass the buck from a crazed right-wingnut to anybody else.

"Apologist" is obviously an exaggeration, but gimme a break - this is a crazy ex-army moron who decided to go off on a liberal Arizona representative and her staff - coincidence? Left-wingers angry at her immigration stance did it? It was a random killing by an army idiot at a publicized political event led by a liberal representative? Random?

Calling it anything less than at least personally politically motivated is ridiculous.

I think it would be prudent to get more facts before you start thinking of this as some politically motivated killing. If the youtube clips are his, this isn't political in a left wing right wing sense, its a guy with a profound delusional state.

I remember talking to a professor a long time ago, and these mass killings are usually impulse driven, and only planned to the point of what guns to use, how much ammo they carry and where they're going to go, they don't care about who they kill, they care about making a statement and putting their footprint in the sands of time.

This guy wasn't talking immigration policy, or republican vs democrat, he was talking currency, new alphabets, and mind control.

This guy at the end of the day wasn't someone that is going to rally people around one flag or the other, he was a mentally ill person that went berserker.

He could have been a left wing, health care supporting civil rights believer, but at the end of the day his warped mind would have sent him on this killing spree.

[BigBrodieFan]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

How about both parties take a stand against it.

The rhetoric and hatred lobbed at Bush, to this day, is disgusting.

I know the GOP has a bigger voice with talk radio, but BOTH parties need to tone it down and come together. This is the whole reason I voted for Obama, I thought he had the best chance to make that happen of all the candidates. I was obvioulsy wrong.

Extremely well said. This is not about friggen politics or 'blame Bush' or whatever. People have DIED, a nine year old child has DIED because of some idiot nutcase, let's focus on the tragedy here and the person who IS to blame.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I know the GOP has a bigger voice with talk radio, but BOTH parties need to tone it down and come together. This is the whole reason I voted for Obama, I thought he had the best chance to make that happen of all the candidates. I was obvioulsy wrong.

Am I reading this correctly? Do you now think that McCain-Palin would have been better for national unity and bringing the country together?

[CaptainCrunch]

He didn't say that at all. He feels that he was let down by Obama's inability to live up to what he promised on the campaign trail. Can we not turn this into another freaking Republican vs Democrat debate.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by evman150

I understand this, and to some extent I agree. But I feel this scenario is very different.

If Obama's shot in the head, should we still avoid "jumping to conclusions" about the shooter's motives?

This woman represents all that is Obama in Arizona. Could it be random? Of course. What are the chances of it being random? <1% IMO.

Completely random? Probably agree with you.

Motivated by her 'libearlism'? I think we have to be careful there. An angry, and disturbed, former soldier may have taken the easiest opportunity to attack someone associated with the body that sent him there.

President Ford's and Reagan's attempted assassinations were not politically motivated at all.

[peter12]

I've been on the staff of a reasonably high profile public figure. It's just a fact of life that public people attract the insane. This has more to do with a single deranged individual taking out his hatred of the world, then it is about right vs. left. Anyone who makes it out to be that is just shoveling partisan bullcrap.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Am I reading this correctly? Do you now think that McCain-Palin would have been better for national unity and bringing the country together?

C'mon MarchHare, you are smarter than that. What he said was he was wrong in the thought that Obama could be a unifying force. He said nothing about McCain-Palin.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I don't think anyone in this thread has said with certainty that the shootings were politically motivated, only that it's a possible cause. In particular, it's not much of a stretch to think that someone who was already mentally unhinged might have been influenced by extremist right-wing rhetoric from the likes of Sarah Palin calling on "American patriots" to "reload" and "take aim" at Rep. Giffords and other Democrats.

Now obviously Palin was not calling for political assassinations, and no reasonable person would think that. Unfortunately, people who go on shooting sprees are not reasonable people, so there's a chance they may take her words literally. Is that what happened here? We don't know yet. Is it conceivable and worthy of discussion that this could potentially be the motive for the muders? Absolutely.

Completely agree.

You did miss a couple of folks who used words like 'surely' to describe that the motivation was political. There were some much more forceful with it than you.

[peter12]

The Congresswoman was also a Blue Dog Democrat. Someone who in the Reagan days would probably served in the Republican caucus. She was not a typical bleeding heart liberal. This is something people like Evman cannot understand. US politics is only superficially about parties.

[BigBrodieFan]

Well, apparently the lunatic's favourite books listed on MySpace included the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Am I reading this correctly? Do you now think that McCain-Palin would have been better for national unity and bringing the country together?

No, not at all. I could have worded it better.

I think I overestimated President Obama's ability to make that happen.

[mikey_the_redneck]

No matter what the killers motives, the political establishment will use this event to attack the 1st and 2nd amendment of the Constitution, and the continued police state security crack down.

It will be hard for msnbc to pin this on tea partiers however, as Gifford is pro-border control and pro-2nd amendment.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

C'mon MarchHare, you are smarter than that. What he said was he was wrong in the thought that Obama could be a unifying force. He said nothing about McCain-Palin.

My mistake then. I interpreted the line, "I thought [Obama] had the best chance to make that happen of all the candidates. I was obvioulsy wrong." as meaning that DFF thought there was another candidate (meaning McCain-Palin since none of the fringe parties had any chance of winning) who would have been more unifying. The language wasn't entirely clear, which is why I asked for clarification (which he provided below).

No, not at all. I could have worded it better.

I think I overestimated President Obama's ability to make that happen.

Fair enough. It's possible your thoughts of two years ago were correct (that of the candidates Obama did stand the best chance of bringing the country together), but that accomplishing that feat at this point is all but impossible. Or in other words, as divided as the US is right now, how much worse might it have been had Obama not won the election?

[peter12]

Actually, incidents like this just cement my conviction that concealed handguns are the last things a free society needs. Congress should use this opportunity to crack down on hand and assault weapons.

[BigBrodieFan]

Originally Posted by peter12

Actually, incidents like this just cement my conviction that concealed handguns are the last things a free society needs. Congress should use this opportunity to crack down on hand and assault weapons.

That will never happen in this country- no way. The gun-right lobbyists are much too powerful.

I don't understand- never ever will- why ANYONE aside from military/police/law enforcement would need to have an assault weapon.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by peter12

Actually, incidents like this just cement my conviction that concealed handguns are the last things a free society needs. Congress should use this opportunity to crack down on hand and assault weapons.

See Mexico as a bad example of what you are preaching here. Mexican citizens cannot own guns, but they are one of the most violent western nations period. They also have more incidents of public officials being attacked.

[CaptainCrunch]

It would be nice if they could increase gun control, however gun control to me is only law on paper. Someone like this guy, or a criminal is going to find a way to get a gun if he wants a gun.

I think if your going to enhance gun control then you certainly have to stiffen the sentences for crimes which commission the use of fire arms both legal and illegal.

Anything else is toothless.

Plus if you decided to ban guns in the states, and miraculously got it passed, it would open a huge and uncontrolled underground gun market.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by peter12

The Congresswoman was also a Blue Dog Democrat. Someone who in the Reagan days would probably served in the Republican caucus. She was not a typical bleeding heart liberal. This is something people like Evman cannot understand. US politics is only superficially about parties.

Nice attack.

So it's not a black and white thing?

Wow...you just opened my eyes up to a whole new intellectual universe Peter12. I feel like a flatlander who just saw a ball for the first time.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

Well, apparently the lunatic's favourite books listed on MySpace included the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf.

Hmm both far sides of the political spectrum.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by evman150

Nice attack.

So it's not a black and white thing?

Wow...you just opened my eyes up to a whole new intellectual universe Peter12. I feel like a flatlander who just saw a ball for the first time.

I'm glad I could help.