Why the Bible is wrong, according to the Bible

[Aeneas]

Originally Posted by Doctordestiny

I can't believe it when athiests criticize believers for taking their kids to church. Let me ask you a question: Assuming you're a Flames fan, do you want you kid to grow up cheering for the Canucks or do you sit him on your knee when you want the red and white play?

I disagree with Red Slinger, I enjoyed that analogy. I certainly hope my children grow up Flames fans. My "indoctrination" will include lots of exposure to the Flames. If it sticks great if not, oh well.

My daughter has asked many questions about God, Jesus, etc. (she's six) and I have answered as if I believed in them. (I do not)

I have taken her to church, will continue to do so. I will let her make up her own mind, and will save my opinions for a much later date.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Doctordestiny

I can't believe it when athiests criticize believers for taking their kids to church. Let me ask you a question: Assuming you're a Flames fan, do you want you kid to grow up cheering for the Canucks or do you sit him on your knee when you want the red and white play?

Personally I don't see anything wrong with showing a child what your faith is, but it gets ridiculous when the parent forces the kid into church when they clearly don't want to go. when I was a kid my parents forced me to go to church every sunday until I was 13.

True story:

The day I was confirmed the bishop asked me how I was going to continue with the church? I said "bishop" I only go to church because my mom and dad make me go, I don't believe in god and the bible makes no sense to me!..he was disgusted, he told my mom "if you can't get your boys head straight" then he's better off not coming to church and poisoning the other kids.

Last day I went to church

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

First of all I have no respect for what T@T stands for. I think I make that very clear. It is a parasitical belief system. It derives all its energy from attacking other faiths.

LOL... a parasite is something that survives thanks to its host. Atheism is an absence of other faiths. It would survive just fine without them.

Originally Posted by Sliver

It just means you're indoctrinating them, that's all. It makes sense, though. You think you have a path to eternal happiness or whatever heaven is and you want your kid to have that, too.

It's only rational behaviour until you realize that the basis for your behaviour is all a lie. FWIW, I suspect if I have kids I will teach them about religion. Religion is real, even if it teaches things that aren't.

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I can prove Santa doesn't exist, even when I was a kid! I can't prove God doesn't exist so that a more difficult argument for a 7 year old.

You can't disprove all Gods, but you can disprove some Gods. Like the ones who are benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient. Can't be all three or we'd all be in Heaven.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

Yah and you left out the part where my post was evidence of you showing a lack of respect for everybody. My post was nothing about if your post was correct or not just about how you act. I guess you missed the point.

it is ok to disagree but you came out hostile at the start of this topic...again. All of your posts contain at least one of the phrases, you dont understand,week minded, I comprehend better than everybody else, blah blah blah.

Sure there are a lot of attacks to your beliefs and they must be hard to read all the time but I think a great deal comes because of your attitude to others.
Why not be the bigger man for once and make all of them look bad by responding maturely with a consice answer rather than name calling. It would be impossible to stop everybody pilling on but perhaps the actions by one person (and I mean you) just might make the difference.
The insults to your beliefs will probably exsist but the personal attacks that you bring on with your attitude just might slow down.

I didn't miss any point. You continue to miss mine. This thread is just another in a long line of threads which are designed for no other reason than to attack my chosen faith. That makes it personal. And for the record I was called out by name on the first page. My first response was the third page and I had actually looked at the substance of Harris' chart, unlike apparently everyone else who has contributed here.

These attacks against Christianity will continue regardless of my behavour. They were going on since long before I was a member of this site. I've got no reason to be nice.

Sam Harris produced a chart with 395 questions concerning apparent contradictions within the Bible. He did this without any attempt to answer the questions himself. Moreover he promotes these questions as proof that the Bible is inaccurate. That doesn't cut the muster as either scientific or reasonable.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Aeneas

I disagree with Red Slinger, I enjoyed that analogy. I certainly hope my children grow up Flames fans. My "indoctrination" will include lots of exposure to the Flames. If it sticks great if not, oh well.

My daughter has asked many questions about God, Jesus, etc. (she's six) and I have answered as if I believed in them. (I do not)

I have taken her to church, will continue to do so. I will let her make up her own mind, and will save my opinions for a much later date.

I did the same with my son at about the same age (didn't take him to church though) and recently (now 10) he brought it up again but in a total different way, apparently there was a fight at school between a christian and a muslim about Jesus and Mohammad and my son piped up and told them...maybe your both wrong!.

I swear to "GOD" I never gave him that thought ever!

I told him, you believe what your head tells you to believe.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I didn't miss any point. You continue to miss mine. This thread is just another in a long line of threads which are designed for no other reason than to attack my chosen faith. That makes it personal.

Funny, every-time one of these threads pops up your one of the first to engage but yet you hate them. It should be nothing personal as your faith isn't "you" (I don't take it personal what you think of me and my beliefs) and you do have a choice to stay away from them.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Hanni

You understand the concept of cyclical logic? You can't use the bible as proof for the bible. That's like saying I have an invisible pink unicorn and my proof is that I say so.

I wasn't useing the Bible to prove the Bible. I was quoting the Bible to show what it says about a certain subject. The fact that a few people over the centuries have ignored what it says and predicted something the Bible itself says can't be known doesn't diminish the Bible but, rather the false prophets.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by T@T

LOL, because I don't believe in your make-believe friend you think I lack joy, peace and comfort? Let me clue you in my friend, If I died tomorrow I would die knowing I have/had all those things and more. You see I have lived my life to the fullest and didn't waste my time on fairytales, instead of giving my hard earned money to a collection plate so the pope,bishops and their buddy's can live like royalty I give to charity's that actually need it, from Kids sport,cancer foundation to friends and family in need.

Funny how religion brainwashes people into thinking non-believers are bad people and don't have a full life! You sir are the one he hasn't lived, you worship a book that was written by human beings solely for the purpose to control other people. Talk a parasitical belief system.

How many times in other threads have I and others called you out on your drive-by fairytale posts like Jonah living in a whale, Noah's flood..etc only to get a snub and say: I don't waste my time with you people"

I truly do hope your happy and if I could pray I would pray that you always stay that way and don't "snap" someday when things go wrong, we have all seen that story far too many times.

As I said you don't get it. You can't see the plank in your own eye while continuely looking for sawdust in mine. Christains don't start these threads. You atheists pick these fights and do it with regularity. Contempt is all you got.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by photon

You're misunderstanding the question I'm asking though. Why am I so special that I have the Truth that most others miss? What makes you better than 60% of the rest of the world's population that you know the right choice?

And I don't see how a choice made at gun point can be a choice made of free will, you'll have to explain that.

I can't answer the question as to why people choose not to follow God. To me it doesn't make sense to commit your life to Christ, but that doesn't mean I have the answers as to why others don't.

I don't know where the choice at gun point comes from. If you are referring to the possibility of going to Hell then I see it nothing more than explaining that there are consequences to everyones decisions and actions. Just like if you told me if I go rob a bank I will go to jail, I still have the choice to go rob the bank or not. If I think I just want the money that badly that I'm willing to risk the possibility of going to jail than so be it. Every decision and every action has some sort of consequence to it.

Originally Posted by photon

Very small? Entire continents hadn't heard of Jesus for a long time.

A person who does bad things but hasn't heard the gospel goes to heaven, but a person who lives a good honest life but doesn't accept the gospel for what he thinks are good reasons goes to hell? Is that just?

I can't give you an answer. I trust that God has a way to show himself to everyone and thus each person will make some sort of choice. If you have to earn your way into heaven by doing good things, it's contrary to the grace of God. I can't provide any better answer than that.

Originally Posted by photon

You can answer in a generic case though.

I won't answer in a generic case because I won't pretend to put myself in God's shoes.

Originally Posted by photon

Why do you think this though? What evidence, other than I have a different conclusion, do you have that I'm not being honest with myself? If it's only because I have a different conclusion, you realize that's a logical fallacy right?

I believe this based upon my understanding of the bible. I've seen how God has done things in my life which helps support my conclusion that God is real. I'm sure based upon what you've read and seen you have reach a logical conclusion to yourself. We have different conclusions, but can't say I have evidence you or anyone else would every consider satisfactory. It really comes down to my faith in God.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Well I would hope the parent has a good relationship with their child, and an open one to boot! I know that is not a fact amongst many families though, it is a difficult thing to do.

Children are impressionable. If parents teach their children something when they're very young, it will stick. Look at Santa Clause: How many young children in America do you think are convinced that Santa exists?
The same goes for religion. Parents, for some strange reason, are allowed to teach their children that one religion is better than all others, and raise them with it.
A parent usually starts instructing their child from birth, so I don't understand what you mean by the "age of the child". They wouldn't start that instruction at age 12 would they?

What I meant is most kids won't make any kind of decision at the age of 3 years old. Also just because they make a decision at one point in there life it doesn't mean they won't change their mind later in life as they gain more information.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by photon

Right, but I wasn't speaking about you specifically, I was speaking in broad terms across populations of people.. the "royal you"

And even if that does happen, in some circumstances that can strengthen rather than weaken a commitment. The whole "in this world but not of it", "set apart" theme is prevalent in some denominations.

Sorry I thought that you were referring to me specifically as it sure sounded that way.

For each individual case the variables will all be different of course, but the demographic facts can't be denied, so either it has to do with believing how you were raised to believe, or there's some other explanation. Do you have one?[/QUOTE]

No, I have no other explanation. Maybe it's just the connotation associated with indoctrination, but I think that's kind of strong language to use.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

As I said you don't get it. You can't see the plank in your own eye while continuely looking for sawdust in mine. Christains don't start these threads. You atheists pick these fights and do it with regularity. Contempt is all you got.

In your mind I don't get it! At least with my beliefs I don't have to feel confused on a weekly basis like most religious people do.

Must be horrible.

[Roast Beef]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

As I said you don't get it. You can't see the plank in your own eye while continuely looking for sawdust in mine. Christains don't start these threads. You atheists pick these fights and do it with regularity. Contempt is all you got.

Your posts are nothing but contempt for others who do not follow your narrow definition. I don't think your religion is the problem. You would be just as hateful and bitter towards others no matter what you believed.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by SebC

LOL... a parasite is something that survives thanks to its host. Atheism is an absence of other faiths. It would survive just fine without them.

Without another belief system to attack atheism would lack all purpose and zeal. Without a enemy to demonize it would quickly fade away as a concept.

That is why atheists can't be content in their own unbelief. Try to find a book written by a atheist that promotes their belief without attacking other faiths. Compare that to the percentage of books in any christian book store that promotes its own beliefs without the need to even mention other belief systems. It is easy to see who is dependant on whom.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

What I meant is most kids won't make any kind of decision at the age of 3 years old. Also just because they make a decision at one point in there life it doesn't mean they won't change their mind later in life as they gain more information.

Yes correct, 3 year olds cant make decisions other than "I must eat that candy now"!! Others make those decisions for them, hence the impressions that are placed on that childs life. Once they are able to make decisions most parents still prefer to over rule and manage their childrens lives, for good or bad. Your right about the fact that later in life they can change or make decisions on their own, but in a lot of cases there are huge scars left to deal with and emotional baggage that weighs them down.

here's some of that baggage...

http://www.exmormon.org/stories.htm
http://new.exchristian.net/

excerpt from one...

Brought up in a Baptist heavily religious home in the UK....
Trouble is when you’re brought up in such a domineering environment there is bound to be some deep seated effect and eventually when I reached 20 I returned home (having left at 16) without a job or money and dreading living with my mother. In truth I was very vulnerable and I began to crack under the inevitable pressure to give my life to god. So I did – what a mistake – I went along and joined the merry brigade with all the hands in the air and speaking in tongues – believing everything I was brainwashed with and became a shadow of myself.

After a year or so my entire instinct was to run a mile but now I’m hooked in and worried about what the church will think but more importantly “what god will think of me”.

I had developed the fear – you know the one - fear of disapproval from god, fear of hell, fear of the devil prowling around like a lion – fear of blasphemy – fear of sex before marriage – literally anything and everything. I hated my life but felt like such a coward daring not to stand up to any of them. I became so disillusioned as my only real prayer was to stop feeling so worthless and hope to be more confident in myself – no change at all. I got married and when my wife told me she was expecting our first child that just did it for me.

I said to myself no way was any child of mine going to suffer the misery I did – no way on earth am I going to bring them up with this stupid dreadful religion stuffed down their throats.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Without another belief system to attack atheism would lack all purpose and zeal. Without a enemy to demonize it would quickly fade away as a concept.

How can the disbelief in something fade away as a concept? Do you think that one day your atheism in regards to Thor is going to fade away as a concept? Nobody believes in Thor anymore, so does that you mean you don't not believe in Thor?

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

That is why atheists can't be content in their own unbelief. Try to find a book written by a atheist that promotes their belief without attacking other faiths. Compare that to the percentage of books in any christian book store that promotes its own beliefs without the need to even mention other belief systems. It is easy to see who is dependant on whom.

I'm fairly content in my own unbelief. Are you content in your belief? You badmouth every other religion (and I'm sure, certain sects within Christianity) as illegitimate, wrong, evil, et cetera, and then bitch about it when the same thing is done to yours. You can't seem to promote your religion without attacking everybody else, which is exactly what you are accusing the atheists of doing, and then calling it a sign of discontent.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Without another belief system to attack atheism would lack all purpose and zeal. Without a enemy to demonize it would quickly fade away as a concept.

That is why atheists can't be content in their own unbelief. Try to find a book written by a atheist that promotes their belief without attacking other faiths. Compare that to the percentage of books in any christian book store that promotes its own beliefs without the need to even mention other belief systems. It is easy to see who is dependant on whom.

Stephen Hawking - The Grand Design

Albert Einstein - too many to mention


Many many more

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Without another belief system to attack atheism would lack all purpose and zeal. Without a enemy to demonize it would quickly fade away as a concept.

That is why atheists can't be content in their own unbelief. Try to find a book written by a atheist that promotes their belief without attacking other faiths. Compare that to the percentage of books in any christian book store that promotes its own beliefs without the need to even mention other belief systems. It is easy to see who is dependant on whom.

Without atheism Christianity was free to rule with an iron fist, spreading their lies and fear for centuries. Now that we have educated ourselves, without interference from the church, and see Christianity (theism) for what it is, we feel it is "your kind" that will fade away...and not a day too soon...and I am VERY content in my belief.

[Day Tripper]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Without another belief system to attack atheism would lack all purpose and zeal. Without a enemy to demonize it would quickly fade away as a concept.

That is why atheists can't be content in their own unbelief. Try to find a book written by a atheist that promotes their belief without attacking other faiths. Compare that to the percentage of books in any christian book store that promotes its own beliefs without the need to even mention other belief systems. It is easy to see who is dependant on whom.

That's because atheism itself doesn't embody any content, but rather is the lack of belief in a certain set of positive statements (theism). Watch how easy this is:

That is why anti-astrologers can't be content in their own unbelief. Try to find a book written by a anti-astrologer that promotes their belief without attacking astrology. Compare that to the percentage of books in any new age book store that promotes Aztec astrology without the need to even mention different types of astrology, like Chinese astrology. It is easy to see who is dependant on whom.

"Without another belief system to attack atheism would lack all purpose and zeal. Without a enemy to demonize it would quickly fade away as a concept."

Of course, because theism is the idea with "substance" to it, not atheism. Theists present an idea that is critiqued in so-called atheist books.

Are you content in your unbelief in the tooth fairy? I suppose so, but the difference here is the impact that these beliefs have, and also the number of people that hold them.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I can't answer the question as to why people choose not to follow God. To me it doesn't make sense to commit your life to Christ, but that doesn't mean I have the answers as to why others don't.

I'm not asking why others don't, I'm asking why you think your choice is superior to so many others.

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I don't know where the choice at gun point comes from. If you are referring to the possibility of going to Hell then I see it nothing more than explaining that there are consequences to everyones decisions and actions. Just like if you told me if I go rob a bank I will go to jail, I still have the choice to go rob the bank or not. If I think I just want the money that badly that I'm willing to risk the possibility of going to jail than so be it. Every decision and every action has some sort of consequence to it.

Sure but your analogy is flawed for a couple of reasons.

First, you know exactly the consequences of robbing a bank. You can read the laws, they are unambiguous and everyone works off the same set of laws. You have direct evidence of the consequences, you see the police standoffs on the news, you read about the people in question going to jail, it's clear.

Whereas in the case of salvation we have none of those things. We have many sets of laws in different writings, and many different groups that read each of those sets of writings to come up with different sets of laws again. Even the Bible itself isn't a single set of Laws, there are varying and conflicting messages within the Bible with respect to salvation, there are many versions of the Bible, all of which were written generations to centuries after the events in question, and many different variations on Christianity itself in the early years. And in the case of salvation, the consequences are unknowable. People believe someone goes to heaven or hell, but there is no way to provide evidence to that, so ultimately there's no way to determine if one set of laws is better than another, because it's impossible to know the outcome. It's not a fair test.

Second, your analogy is an example of not doing something, which is the opposite of salvation's case of having to do something, so it's not a good analogy. If you choose to not rob the bank, there's no direct negative consequences.

But salvation is the opposite, if I choose to do nothing, I go to hell. I have to actively choose to do something to avoid a global negative consequence. I didn't choose to have that global negative consequence around.

Like I said before a better analogy is finding a cute girl, and telling her that she has to marry you or you will lock her in the basement forever. She will of course choose to marry you, but that's not a free choice, that's coercion.

Do you see how your robbing the bank example isn't a good analogy?

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I can't give you an answer. I trust that God has a way to show himself to everyone and thus each person will make some sort of choice. If you have to earn your way into heaven by doing good things, it's contrary to the grace of God. I can't provide any better answer than that.

Ah see you're at the point I was at many years ago. I believed because I believed, and if I didn't have anything to support a particular belief I believed it anyway by faith. My faith was basically a tautology.

The problem with that is then there's nothing to set it apart from anyone else's faith. It goes back to my question of why you think your choice of faith is superior to so many others'.

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I won't answer in a generic case because I won't pretend to put myself in God's shoes.

This is a cop-out and I think you know it. You answer the generic case all the time when you discuss any point of doctrine. Every week the generic case is preached from the pulpit in whatever church you attend. The Bible speaks, which scriptures do you think apply and why?

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I believe this based upon my understanding of the bible. I've seen how God has done things in my life which helps support my conclusion that God is real. I'm sure based upon what you've read and seen you have reach a logical conclusion to yourself.

Alright. So if god chooses to provide you with things that convince you, that's great for you, but what about the rest of us who don't get that benefit?

And what about the followers of other religions? Muslims will say the exact same things, that god has done things in their life that support their conclusion that their god is real.

Are they right too? Maybe all religions are equal but different paths to the same god?

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

We have different conclusions, but can't say I have evidence you or anyone else would every consider satisfactory. It really comes down to my faith in God.

Exactly, it comes down faith. I was at that exact point as well, I believed what I believed because of faith. But others believed what they believed because of faith too, and their beliefs were different than mine, sometimes incompatible even. Is my belief the right one?

To think that I, out of the billions of billions of humans, alive and dead, just happened to have the exact right set of beliefs was plainly absurd, so I strove to get back to basics, why did I believe what I did?

Unfortunately it could not stand up to scrutiny.