Why the Bible is wrong, according to the Bible

[photon]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

So then a child that is the son or daughter of an athiest has no choice but to be an athiest since the parents will not expose them to any religion but will be told that there isn't a god. Therefore the choice is made for those children.

Did you miss the word "likely" in what he said? It's not that they have no choice but to be an atheist, it's just that they will likely believe similar to what their parents believe, all things being equal.

Beliefs can be heavily influenced by what your peers believe, you admitted to this yourself in your acceptance of Christianity.

You still choose what to believe, but your choice is informed and influenced by external factors, and to overcome a strong belief with just reasoning is actually quite difficult.

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the fact that children's choices are made for them just based upon what they are exposed to. I won't disagree that there is an influence but the choice a child makes will ultimately be the childs choice not the parents.

It's the child's choice, but as demonstrated by simple demographics, that choice is primarily as a result of that influence, not on reasoning of all available options or something like that.

The choices we make aren't nearly as "free" as we'd like to think.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by photon

Beliefs can be heavily influenced by what your peers believe, you admitted to this yourself in your acceptance of Christianity.

You still choose what to believe, but your choice is informed and influenced by external factors, and to overcome a strong belief with just reasoning is actually quite difficult.

Just a correction here. I beleive I said that my father, and grandparents were non christians and all my friends were non-christians. So if anything my peers would taunt me for my choice of being a Christian. My choice was not influenced by peers because it would have been a far easier path and childhood for me had I chosen to not be a Christian.

Originally Posted by photon

It's the child's choice, but as demonstrated by simple demographics, that choice is primarily as a result of that influence, not on reasoning of all available options or something like that.

The choices we make aren't nearly as "free" as we'd like to think.

I know that outside forces play a part in what choice a child makes. I think we are just going to need to agree to disagree because I still believe that a child's choice will be a child's (not parents) choice. Now the one disclaimer I put on that is that the parents influence may play varying roles such as the age of the child and the child's relationship with the parent.

[GirlySports]

When children go to Buddhist temples and that drum is beaten into their heads, they leave very quickly.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by Cheese

atheism is not religion. It has no boundaries and can mean different things to different people.
My kids have the absolute right to make any choice they want as long as it doesn't hurt others. They have gone to various churches and I have accompanied them, if they wanted. They have asked questions about each one and we have found the answers to those questions together, honestly and openly.
This is an absolute 180 from most Christian families. Id assume the same for all other religions as well.

You may research the questions with your children, but if your child asks for your opinion I'm sure you will provide them with your opinion (which has an influence). But this opinion will not have made the choice for them.

[Draug]

Originally Posted by photon

Did you miss the word "likely" in what he said? It's not that they have no choice but to be an atheist, it's just that they will likely believe similar to what their parents believe, all things being equal.

It's the child's choice, but as demonstrated by simple demographics, that choice is primarily as a result of that influence, not on reasoning of all available options or something like that.

The choices we make aren't nearly as "free" as we'd like to think.

So do you feel that parents are doing their children a disservice by raising them with a similar belief structure as the parents have?

I've heard athiests say it is a travesty that Christian parents raise their children within the Christian belief structure; some have gone as far to say that Christian parents are brainwashing their children at an early age in order to insure they grow up as Christians.

Likewise, I've heard Christians say that Athiests are wronging their children by not exposing them to Christianity.

I'm not sure where the ideal line lies. I know that my two children, 5 and 3 years old, have exact same belief structure that I and my wife have. It seems only natural that they would. Granted, they may shift as they get older, but I dont think it will be because I am pushing them to do so.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I know that outside forces play a part in what choice a child makes. I think we are just going to need to agree to disagree because I still believe that a child's choice will be a child's (not parents) choice. Now the one disclaimer I put on that is that the parents influence may play varying roles such as the age of the child and the child's relationship with the parent.

Well I would hope the parent has a good relationship with their child, and an open one to boot! I know that is not a fact amongst many families though, it is a difficult thing to do.

Children are impressionable. If parents teach their children something when they're very young, it will stick. Look at Santa Clause: How many young children in America do you think are convinced that Santa exists?
The same goes for religion. Parents, for some strange reason, are allowed to teach their children that one religion is better than all others, and raise them with it.
A parent usually starts instructing their child from birth, so I don't understand what you mean by the "age of the child". They wouldn't start that instruction at age 12 would they?

[jammies]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

When children go to Buddhist temples and that drum is beaten into their heads, they leave very quickly.

Buddhism seems pretty laid-back as far as religions go - how is it passed on from generation to generation if not at temple? Is it teaching by example?

If my dim recollection of Buddhist teachings is correct, belief in the supernatural is not required (although permitted and in some traditions practiced), which certainly gets around practically all of the objections to religion I have, but on what do Buddhists therefore base their beliefs? Is it possible to be an atheist and a Buddhist at the same time?

[Joe Nieuwendyk]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Children are impressionable. If parents teach their children something when they're very young, it will stick. Look at Santa Clause: How many young children in America do you think are convinced that Santa exists?
The same goes for religion.

So you're saying that if the parents continued to tell their child of the existence of Santa, that child would likely continue to believe in Santa as an adult?

FYI, when it comes to Santa I'm definitely agnostic.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

Just a correction here. I beleive I said that my father, and grandparents were non christians and all my friends were non-christians. So if anything my peers would taunt me for my choice of being a Christian. My choice was not influenced by peers because it would have been a far easier path and childhood for me had I chosen to not be a Christian.

Right, but I wasn't speaking about you specifically, I was speaking in broad terms across populations of people.. the "royal you"

And even if that does happen, in some circumstances that can strengthen rather than weaken a commitment. The whole "in this world but not of it", "set apart" theme is prevalent in some denominations.

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I know that outside forces play a part in what choice a child makes. I think we are just going to need to agree to disagree because I still believe that a child's choice will be a child's (not parents) choice. Now the one disclaimer I put on that is that the parents influence may play varying roles such as the age of the child and the child's relationship with the parent.

For each individual case the variables will all be different of course, but the demographic facts can't be denied, so either it has to do with believing how you were raised to believe, or there's some other explanation. Do you have one?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Draug

So do you feel that parents are doing their children a disservice by raising them with a similar belief structure as the parents have?

Not really, it's like gravity or taxes, it's just one of those things that exist and there's little that could be done to change it. EDIT: Beyond a normal change of social norms I mean, who knows at some point teaching religion to kids might be like teaching sex to kids, something not done until they're a little older and ready to understand.

Sometimes I think someone arguing against indoctrination indulges in the nirvana fallacy.. while indoctrination may not be ideal from some viewpoints, there's no alternative so it's useless to argue against it.

As always the devil is in the details and it's always the degree. The parent that teaches a kid to stand up physically for themselves is seen as responsible, while the parent that teaches their kid to bully is seen as irresponsible.

Originally Posted by Draug

I've heard athiests say it is a travesty that Christian parents raise their children within the Christian belief structure; some have gone as far to say that Christian parents are brainwashing their children at an early age in order to insure they grow up as Christians.

It's all about degree.

Even before I changed my beliefs, I withdrew from a church for the singular purpose of making sure my kid didn't go to that particular children's church. The denomination I grew up in has some, um, special views that I find particularly harmful and have impacted my adult life in negative ways, and I didn't want to subject my kid to that. But if we'd been at a more moderate church I probably wouldn't have left.

Some Christian parents let their kids ask questions, discuss things reasonably, and understand that their kids have their own lives and need to have their own spiritual life. Tell them god loves them, do unto others, all the good stuff.

Others are extremely legalistic, won't let their kids watch Smurfs or read Harry Potter, make sure they get taught the dangers of listening to non-Christian music by hearing messages when the songs are played backwards or reading anything not written by the right kind of Christian, send them to camps like that Jesus Camp movie, etc etc, threatening them with the fires of hell, eternal punishment for finite crimes, etc

And of course this isn't just Christian, any set of beliefs has this potential. Think of all the Free Kids on the Land being raised

Originally Posted by Draug

Likewise, I've heard Christians say that Athiests are wronging their children by not exposing them to Christianity.

I'd probably agree with them, though probably not in degree. I'm all for a comparative religions course in school for example.

Originally Posted by Draug

I'm not sure where the ideal line lies. I know that my two children, 5 and 3 years old, have exact same belief structure that I and my wife have. It seems only natural that they would. Granted, they may shift as they get older, but I dont think it will be because I am pushing them to do so.

I think the ideal line is to simply be aware that there's an extreme out there. Usually if you even consider that an extreme might exist, you don't need to worry that you are at it.

If you don't think there's an extreme, then you are probably at the extreme lol

[photon]

Originally Posted by Joe Nieuwendyk

So you're saying that if the parents continued to tell their child of the existence of Santa, that child would likely continue to believe in Santa as an adult?

If most of the other adults around them believed as well, why not?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by jammies

Buddhism seems pretty laid-back as far as religions go - how is it passed on from generation to generation if not at temple? Is it teaching by example?

If my dim recollection of Buddhist teachings is correct, belief in the supernatural is not required (although permitted and in some traditions practiced), which certainly gets around practically all of the objections to religion I have, but on what do Buddhists therefore base their beliefs? Is it possible to be an atheist and a Buddhist at the same time?

It's up to the individuals. The temples doors are always open and there are teachings and services on Saturdays. Anyone is welcome to go.

But not many go to temple, they deem is unnecessary. Most of the passing on from generation to generation occurs in the home. The main teaching of buddhism is "Life is suffering" and with in that a person must always strive to improve oneself through wisdom, ethical conduct and mental development. Kids learn from their parents through their everyday actions. It's teaching by example, not be doctrine. Kids also learn to respect elders and the deceased through death anniversary celebrations where families get together.

I think you can be both atheist and buddhist although those who believe in buddhism often believe in theories like karma which is believed to involve the supernatural or the actions/reactions of a higher being.

[Red Slinger]

I've really enjoyed the posts in this thread from both "sides" of the debate. For some reason I was reminded of (I think it was) an episode of Family Guy where Peter dies and goes to the Pearly Gates. St.Peter is introducing a large throng of the newly deceased to the gates of heaven and is trying to hurry them along to get ready for the next group. During the indoctrination (dare I say) he asks if anyone has any questions. Peter raises his hand and asks "so, which one of the religions is right?" St.Peter responds, "oh, yeah, it's the Jews" (IIRC- it possibly could have been another religion). Some in the throng respond with exclamations of "I knew it" or "I was so close" or "I shouldn't have had that ham sandwich", etc. Sorry if this makes light of the issue as I know how important it is to so many people.

On a more serious note, I am not a religious person. I'm not sure that I'd classify my self as an aetheist or even an agnostic. I guess if I had to label myself it would be something like Orthodox Skeptic. That said, from time to time I very much envy those that believe in a higher power. I don't envy them because I think my life would be better or I'd be happier or any other tangible improvement but I envy their faith. In my experience Faith is the real difference between a person who 'believes' and one that doesn't. A person without Faith can't understand the person with Faith unless they've experienced it themselves (as I have). A person with Faith can't necessarily quantify, qualify or explain their Faith: it's there and they feel it.

I hesitate to get into the psychological breakdown of this phenomenon because I think it would be extremely disrespectful. Who am I to argue what another person feels, especially when they feel it deeply? However, I will gladly argue the validity of the Bible as the word of God. A little scholarly study quickly and easily reveals the direct influences for the Bible. Many practices from pre-Christian Pegan worship, ancient political philosophy, populist attitudes of the era and even propoganda from the powerful of the time find their way into the Bible in a very direct and transparant way. To think that the Bible is written by God is ridiculous. To suggest that people, complete with their flaws, pettiness, partialities, histories and personal agendas didn't write the Bible is ignorant (at best).

I find no fault in a faith based believer. What they believe is largely irrelevant to me. Someone who lives according to a book written by people who weren't even at the thing they're describing is beyond faith or even blind faith. They are in denial.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

I've really enjoyed the posts in this thread from both "sides" of the debate. For some reason I was reminded of (I think it was) an episode of Family Guy where Peter dies and goes to the Pearly Gates. St.Peter is introducing a large throng of the newly deceased to the gates of heaven and is trying to hurry them along to get ready for the next group. During the indoctrination (dare I say) he asks if anyone has any questions. Peter raises his hand and asks "so, which one of the religions is right?" St.Peter responds, "oh, yeah, it's the Jews" (IIRC- it possibly could have been another religion). Some in the throng respond with exclamations of "I knew it" or "I was so close" or "I shouldn't have had that ham sandwich", etc. Sorry if this makes light of the issue as I know how important it is to so many people.

On a more serious note, I am not a religious person. I'm not sure that I'd classify my self as an aetheist or even an agnostic. I guess if I had to label myself it would be something like Orthodox Skeptic. That said, from time to time I very much envy those that believe in a higher power. I don't envy them because I think my life would be better or I'd be happier or any other tangible improvement but I envy their faith. In my experience Faith is the real difference between a person who 'believes' and one that doesn't. A person without Faith can't understand the person with Faith unless they've experienced it themselves (as I have). A person with Faith can't necessarily quantify, qualify or explain their Faith: it's there and they feel it.

I hesitate to get into the psychological breakdown of this phenomenon because I think it would be extremely disrespectful. Who am I to argue what another person feels, especially when they feel it deeply? However, I will gladly argue the validity of the Bible as the word of God. A little scholarly study quickly and easily reveals the direct influences for the Bible. Many practices from pre-Christian Pegan worship, ancient political philosophy, populist attitudes of the era and even propoganda from the powerful of the time find their way into the Bible in a very direct and transparant way. To think that the Bible is written by God is ridiculous. To suggest that people, complete with their flaws, pettiness, partialities, histories and personal agendas didn't write the Bible is ignorant (at best).

I find no fault in a faith based believer. What they believe is largely irrelevant to me. Someone who lives according to a book written by people who weren't even at the thing they're describing is beyond faith or even blind faith. They are in denial.

Nice post!
I think the missing ingredient in all of it is the assumption that atheists had no faith before they became atheist. In actual fact most of us were likely highly religious before de-converting <is that a word?>.
I had faith, very strong faith at one time. I was also curious, and that curiosity led me to dig out the truth of my faith. That work changed my life and my faith is now entirely on the human race and myself and my family specifically. We do not need to have or require a faith in the supernatural to exist.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Joe Nieuwendyk

So you're saying that if the parents continued to tell their child of the existence of Santa, that child would likely continue to believe in Santa as an adult?

FYI, when it comes to Santa I'm definitely agnostic.

Photon answered but I will as well.
For the first 9-10 years of a child's existence the Santa myth is played out in full technicolor. The child buys into it fully. The story is replenished with pictures of Santa, music, the guy at the Mall and every department store, books, you name it. They cannot go anywhere in the western world without knowing of and hearing about Santa.
Its only when children of families who do not have the same belief and children of families who finally tell their children he doesn't exist that the fairy tale ends.
Lets suppose families didn't tell their kids Santa was a fake, they let the story continue and told their children that those who didn't believe were wrong and damned to a life in hell for that thought.

[GirlySports]

I got in deep doodoo once for telling another kid that Santa doesn't exist.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I got in deep doodoo once for telling another kid that Santa doesn't exist.

yep happens all the time...yet can you imagine how deep that pile of doodoo would be if you had said, " Your God doesn't exist".

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Cheese

yep happens all the time...yet can you imagine how deep that pile of doodoo would be if you had said, " Your God doesn't exist".

I can prove Santa doesn't exist, even when I was a kid! I can't prove God doesn't exist so that a more difficult argument for a 7 year old.

[Doctordestiny]

I can't believe it when athiests criticize believers for taking their kids to church. Let me ask you a question: Assuming you're a Flames fan, do you want you kid to grow up cheering for the Canucks or do you sit him on your knee when you want the red and white play?

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Doctordestiny

I can't believe it when athiests criticize believers for taking their kids to church. Let me ask you a question: Assuming you're a Flames fan, do you want you kid to grow up cheering for the Canucks or do you sit him on your knee when you want the red and white play?

With all due respect that's a lousy analogy. You're comparing a persons belief system that will guide their life, how they will behave and what they will raise their children to believe with religion...