When do they finally Axe Park N Ride?

[jammies]

What industry is in Okotoks/High River other than agricultural stuff like the Cargill plant? Go to somewhere like Acme or Beiseker and see how far that gets your normal Alberta small town.

Thinking Okotoks or High River are anything more than bedroom/retirement communities is ridiculous. That being said, if people want to live out there in what passes for bucolic splendour, let them - but the city should be looking at ways of taxing those people for the municipal services they use but are not paying a reasonable share for.

[Flames0910]

Wow, the Internet really brings out the worst in people. You guys should mobilize and set up barricades at the city entrance/exit points if parasites (totally offensive term btw) make you so angry. In fact, we should go further - demolish the airport and just build a wall around the entire city. That will teach 'em!

Calgary is a major metropolis - as such it's an economic hub and driver for the entire area. That includes bedroom communities, but it also includes outliers like Canmore, Banff and Fort Mac.

Of course the oil from Fort Mac also benefits us far more than it does the residents of the North and you don't see any Calgarians complaining about the unfairness there.

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

Why do you think house prices according to Dion are the same as those in Calgary? Why do you think it is rapidly growing? Here's a hint, it's not because of a couple doctors and few lawyers.

If it wasn't for Calgary, Okotoks would be like any other small town in the middle of nowhere Alberta. It wouldn't be booming.

And if it wasn't for the hundreds of thousands of immigrants who came to Calgary as teenagers then we would still be a small town city too.

Thank you India, Lebanon, Iraq, Pakistan, China, Japan and many other countries!

Heck even thank you Saskatchewan since it seems like about 25% of our city come from that province.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Flames0910

Wow, the Internet really brings out the worst in people. You guys should mobilize and set up barricades at the city entrance/exit points if parasites (totally offensive term btw) make you so angry. In fact, we should go further - demolish the airport and just build a wall around the entire city. That will teach 'em!

Calgary is a major metropolis - as such it's an economic hub and driver for the entire area. That includes bedroom communities, but it also includes outliers like Canmore, Banff and Fort Mac.

Of course the oil from Fort Mac also benefits us far more than it does the residents of the North and you don't see any Calgarians complaining about the unfairness there.

So what? As has already been stated in this thread there are many other "major metropolis's" that already implement user fees on residents of bedroom communities.

If you want to use the services funded by the taxpayers of this city then you should have to pay a premium to do so.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Flames0910

Wow, the Internet really brings out the worst in people. You guys should mobilize and set up barricades at the city entrance/exit points if parasites (totally offensive term btw) make you so angry.

Calgary is a major metropolis - as such it's an economic hub and driver for the entire area. That includes bedroom communities, but it also includes outliers like Canmore, Banff and Fort Mac.

Of course the oil from Fort Mac also benefits us far more than it does the residents of the North and you don't see any Calgarians complaining about the unfairness there.

I think it makes sense to things like this for suburban cities, so Calgary isn't overburdened. National parks have enterence passes to cover passes, so I don't think its outrageous for a suburban city.

Saying that... this does bring out the worst in people. What people whine and bitch about for a few hundread bucks. People should feel fortunate to live so well to complain about what they do. North America is (arguably) one of the best places in the world to live and there is a 5% chance of you being born into North America (~330M/7B) where you are given so many resources and opportunities. And then everyone bitches and whines over the smallest complaints. I live in the USA and spend less than 1 week a year in Canada, but because of my work visa, I pay USA taxes and Canadian taxes, and since I'm in the high tax bracket, so while everyone here whines about paying $600 for what they don't use, I'm paying probably the a year's worth of salary for some Calgarian's salary of this board to Canada ON TOP of paying USA taxes. But I'm not going to whine about it, because I feel fortunate to be given the opportunities that I have and received a fantastic education in Canada. If you pay a little extra for something you don't use, consider yourself fortunate such that you are given an opportunity to succeed because of where you were born/grew up/educated and that the success you enjoy because of it, you give back to the community.

[Raekwon]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

People are flocking there because they pay nothing for property taxes and get much larger houses on a larger piece of land for far less than you could ever dream of in Calgary.

They will also tell you at every opportunity that they can make it downtown in 20 minutes despite the fact that every time they utter the words a part of their brain feels hot as they remember the 2 hours they spend in the car every day to get to their community where they don't have to worry about traffic.

FYI property tax is higher in High River than Calgary.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by puckluck

And if it wasn't for the hundreds of thousands of immigrants who came to Calgary as teenagers then we would still be a small town city too.

Thank you India, Lebanon, Iraq, Pakistan, China, Japan and many other countries!

Heck even thank you Saskatchewan since it seems like about 25% of our city come from that province.

Once again, do you have a point or are you just spouting off random gibberish? How is any of this relevant to the discussion?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by jammies

What industry is in Okotoks/High River other than agricultural stuff like the Cargill plant? Go to somewhere like Acme or Beiseker and see how far that gets your normal Alberta small town.

As for High River there is a hospital where doctors and nurses work. Then there's 4 Public schools and one Catholic where one can work as a teacher etc.. Then there's all the small business owners in town. Our former mayor is a land developer and builder. The on going housing development that employs all the trades in the construction industry Dentists and lawyers. People who work for the town in various roles.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Flames0910

Wow, the Internet really brings out the worst in people. You guys should mobilize and set up barricades at the city entrance/exit points if parasites (totally offensive term btw) make you so angry. In fact, we should go further - demolish the airport and just build a wall around the entire city. That will teach 'em!

Calgary is a major metropolis - as such it's an economic hub and driver for the entire area. That includes bedroom communities, but it also includes outliers like Canmore, Banff and Fort Mac.

Of course the oil from Fort Mac also benefits us far more than it does the residents of the North and you don't see any Calgarians complaining about the unfairness there.

Since you like taking people's opinions out of context I'll do the same.

You are obviously totally in favour of abolishing all borders worldwide because you don't believe in law and order.

[GirlySports]

I thought that charging $3 to park and ride would have made people take more shuttle buses. Isn't there one in every neighbourhood?

For me I just time the shuttle and it takes me to the park and ride and I save $3 a day! I find it convenient but also noticed that my shuttle bus is often quite empty.

Are shuttle buses being underused?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by SebC

Just because you pay into a pool and money and money from that pool pays for something does not mean you have paid for it. You have to look at net effects. If you take more out of the pool than you put in, you're not really subsidizing anything, are you? But you are getting subsidized.

So what if Calgary received federal and provincial dollars? We pay federal and provincial taxes. And since we're one of the richest jurisdictions in Alberta and Canada, and since we're not swing voters, I would wager that we contribute more to those governments than we ever get back. We are subsidizing, not subsidized.

It's absurd to say you're subsidizing Calgary, when even more money is flowing out of Calgary to subsidize you. The only thing that makes sense is to look at NET subsidies, which are almost certainly in your favor.

And just like that...

http://www.calgarysun.com/news/alber.../15899011.html

Calgary has been over-contributing to the provincial and federal governments for the past two decades, according to a study being presented to a city committee Thursday.

The study found “a large amount of tax payments went to the federal and provincial governments, leaving less than adequate funding for the municipal government to invest in local infrastructure.”

In short, the city has paid more to the other two levels of government than it receives in services.

[redforever]

Originally quoted by GreenTeaFrapp;2756875 Would these communities be booming without proximity to Calgary? No, they're parasites living off the opportunities provided by Calgary.

And would Calgary be as sustainable if the parasites were not employed by various companies or businesses in Calgary? Those businesses are providing sustainability to Calgary, no matter who they employ. If the workforce those businesses required was available in Calgary, why are they hiring from parasite communities? Viable businesses are a huge benefit to Calgary.

I guess you might have to enact hiring policies for businesses in Calgary. I am sure they will be only too willing to go along with that.

Do you not think that a significant portion of provincial and federal tax dollars come from Calgary?

I am fully aware of that. The topic is user fees to cover the maintenance costs of some of your services. I already told you I am willing to pay user fees and I do. So I will ride the C Train, I will pay the user fees, what is the problem? Capital costs were shared.

And when I disagreed with the premise that parasites are cheap, you responded with

Did I say that? No, I didn't. And I don't think anyone else here did either.

If you go a few posts above my other response, you will find your own words, and they are

They're a captive audience since most of the time the reason they moved out of the city was because they're cheap.

And your husband benefited by having customers who had access to his business through public transit.

Well, truth be told, not nearly as much as the city of Calgary. With the various companies he and his partners have had, they have employed well over 100 Calgarians in the oil and gas industry as well as people in the service sector of the oil and gas industry within and outside of Calgary. So he supported your tax base.

Well, for the rental properties it's actually the renters who are paying the taxes indirectly.

No, the owners of the property pay the taxes, no matter if they are Calgarians or parasites. It matters not if the house is for their children to live in, if the house is for the owners themselves to live in when they are in Calgary, if the house is left vacant, or if there are renters in the house. The owners of the property pay the taxes.

Calgarians aren't riding free since their tax dollars pay the bills regardless of whether or not they use transit or abuse the honour system. The only ones who are riding free are the people from parasite communities who abuse the honour system.

Plain and simple, they are cheating you and you are paying more because of that fact. And so am I.

So they shouldn't charge people to ride the buses and trains at all then since doing so only increases bureaucracy, discourages people from using the system and encourages people to try to beat the system as demonstrated by all the people who beat the honour system according to you. Why should the city of Calgary encourage people to live in parasite communities and drain away tax dollars that could be invested in Calgary infrastructure?

Get real. I was talking about services for Calgarians, not the so called parasites who are apparently draining your system. If the bus service in Calgary was up to par, more Calgarians would be taking the bus to the C Train stations and not driving there. Other people in this thread have already alluded to that fact. The bus service in many of the outlying areas of Calgary is cumbersome to say the least. Make it easier for the citizens of Calgary to buy into the plan.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

The drive to and from the Okotoks/High River area to downtown is absolutley obscene anytime even remotely close to rush hour. Anyone that tells you different is a liar, straight up.

I have a co-worker who lives near Cochrane that tells me it takes them only 45 minutes to get to work while I have another co-worker that lives in Deer Valley (which is on the way) who says that it takes them nearly an hour to get to work. They arrive to work around the same time. This riddle hurts my head early in the morning.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by redforever

And would Calgary be as sustainable if the parasites were not employed by various companies or businesses in Calgary? Those businesses are providing sustainability to Calgary, no matter who they employ. If the workforce those businesses required was available in Calgary, why are they hiring from parasite communities? Viable businesses are a huge benefit to Calgary.

I guess you might have to enact hiring policies for businesses in Calgary. I am sure they will be only too willing to go along with that.
[/COLOR]

What are you talking about? Businesses don't give a damn where employees live, they just care about whether or not they can show up at work. No businesses are going out and actively recruiting from bedroom communities, they're recruiting from the entire pool of people who are willing to make whatever trip is required to get to work. They can live in Vancouver, it simply doesn't matter. If people had to live in Calgary to work in Calgary you'd see a pretty massive migration of people to Calgary. Some businesses could move out, but for most that's simply not feasible. Besides, the entire concept would be completely impossible to implement in reality.

And what does this have to do with the usage of the infrastructure of the City of Calgary? If you choose to take a job that requires you to utilize the infrastructure of another city why shouldn't you have to pay for it? I don't think Calgary is at the point where it's a major issue, but it will need to be addressed in the not too distant future.

BTW, anyone who honestly believes that the economies of cities like High River and Okotoks aren't highly dependent upon the economy of Calgary needs to give their head a shake. Take away the bedroom communities and Calgary suffers a minor impact. Take away Calgary and those communities all but die.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Dion

As for High River there is a hospital where doctors and nurses work. Then there's 4 Public schools and one Catholic where one can work as a teacher etc.. Then there's all the small business owners in town. Our former mayor is a land developer and builder. The on going housing development that employs all the trades in the construction industry Dentists and lawyers. People who work for the town in various roles.

None of that, other than construction - which is more an effect of growth, not a cause - is much in the way of industry. The difference lies in whether you are sellling goods and services to other polities, or whether you are mostly providing workers, and the latter is what defines a bedroom community.

Whether that's "parasitism" is debatable, as those workers are providing labour, not just pulling down a paycheque for nothing, but from the point of view of municipal services they are definitely a net drain on city coffers. The city has an obligation to the taxpayers that sustain it to try to limit this drain, as unchecked, it can severely affect a city's growth or even cause it to shrink in the long run, like has happened in cities like Detroit or Buffalo in the States. Which isn't good for anyone, resident or not.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Dion

Guess we'll agree to disagree on this subject.

Agreeing to disagree is appropriate for matters of opinion. However, the argument is more a matter of fact than opinion, and unfortunately the facts say you're wrong.

2006 census place of work numbers for select towns that have come up in this discussion. Let's compare the work-in-municipality-of-residence vs. work-elsewhere splits.


Airdrie



http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...B1=All&Custom=

Percentile Split: 35/65

Cochrane



http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...B1=All&Custom=

Percentile Split: 46/54

Chestermere



http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...B1=All&Custom=

Percentile Split: 7/93

Okotoks



http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...B1=All&Custom=

Percentile Split: 37/63

High River



http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...B1=All&Custom=

Percentile Split: 65/35

Calgary



http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...B1=All&Custom=

Percentile Split: 97/3

-----------------------------

Conclusions

- Calgary dwarfs its neighbours in terms of residents being employed in the municipality in which they live

- Although the numbers aren't available to tell the particular destination municipalities people from the origin municipalities (bedroom communities) are employed in, it is very obviously Calgary

- Numbers from High River are in a bit of a different category than the rest of the examples, however it should be noted that the numbers are from 2006. The trend for the "next communities out" in all directions has been for more and more residents to commute elsewhere for work. Crossfield (north), High River (south), and Strathmore (east) would be included here.

----------------

I should preface this by saying that I've tried to stick to stating the facts and debunking misconceptions in this debate thus far, and this part goes a bit beyond that.

Not to get too personal about this Dion, but how are these things not apparent to you? Do you not talk with your neighbours and discuss where they work and shop? Do you not see the cars on the highway headed north out of town in the morning and south in to town in the evenings? Do you not have an approximate sense of the ratio of businesses to residential units in your town and compare it to that of Calgary?

On any level, how can you seriously make the argument that Okotoks or your own town has a proportion of people that both live and work there that is anywhere close to that of Calgary. How can you then go even further to suggest that Calgarians are "flocking" to Okotoks so they can both live and work in that community?

Please don't think I'm insulting your character or that of the community which you clearly enjoy. However, I must implore you to look at the facts and not act so surpised when people dare to classify your town, or ones like it, as a bedroom community of the City of Calgary.

[SebC]

This is pretty neat: the Nenshi accountability roadmap.

http://twosmiles.ca/Calgary-Route-Map

It's been passed on to Nenshi and he's printed it out and put it up in his office.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Agreeing to disagree is appropriate for matters of opinion. However, the argument is more a matter of fact than opinion, and unfortunately the facts say you're wrong.

It is when you don't like the debating style of the poster your talking with.

2006 census place of work numbers for select towns that have come up in this discussion. Let's compare the work-in-municipality-of-residence vs. work-elsewhere splits.


Airdrie



http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...B1=All&Custom=

Percentile Split: 35/65

Cochrane



http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...B1=All&Custom=

Percentile Split: 46/54

Chestermere



http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...B1=All&Custom=

Percentile Split: 7/93

Okotoks



http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...B1=All&Custom=

Percentile Split: 37/63

High River



http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...B1=All&Custom=

Percentile Split: 65/35

Calgary



http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...B1=All&Custom=

Percentile Split: 97/3

-----------------------------

Conclusions

- Calgary dwarfs its neighbours in terms of residents being employed in the municipality in which they live

- Although the numbers aren't available to tell the particular destination municipalities people from the origin municipalities (bedroom communities) are employed in, it is very obviously Calgary

- Numbers from High River are in a bit of a different category than the rest of the examples, however it should be noted that the numbers are from 2006. The trend for the "next communities out" in all directions has been for more and more residents to commute elsewhere for work. Crossfield (north), High River (south), and Strathmore (east) would be included here.

----------------

I should preface this by saying that I've tried to stick to stating the facts and debunking misconceptions in this debate thus far, and this part goes a bit beyond that.

Not to get too personal about this Dion, but how are these things not apparent to you? Do you not talk with your neighbours and discuss where they work and shop? Do you not see the cars on the highway headed north out of town in the morning and south in to town in the evenings? Do you not have an approximate sense of the ratio of businesses to residential units in your town and compare it to that of Calgary?

All of my neighbours are retired - it has to do with the part of the town I live in. Most of them either shop in town or head out to Okotoks for the most part. They'll head to Calgary to shop if they can't get what they need here or in Okotoks.

As for cars heading in and out of town on the few times on the road at that time i see lots of cars. Some are from Calgary and others are from the Cargil meat plant. That said i'm not suggesting there isn't residents heading to and from Calgary for work. A good portion of this town is retirees as it was once considered the fastest growing retirement community in Alberta. It's why my parents and many of their friends moved here. That has since changed as young families are moving here in great numbers.

On any level, how can you seriously make the argument that Okotoks or your own town has a proportion of people that both live and work there that is anywhere close to that of Calgary. How can you then go even further to suggest that Calgarians are "flocking" to Okotoks so they can both live and work in that community?

I don't remember saying they all flocked here to work and live.

Please don't think I'm insulting your character or that of the community which you clearly enjoy. However, I must implore you to look at the facts and not act so surpised when people dare to classify your town, or ones like it, as a bedroom community of the City of Calgary.

No insult taken by me.

Btw thank you. You're the first one to provdie any concrete data to look at.

What you provided was what I was looking for. Something I couldn't find.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I thought that charging $3 to park and ride would have made people take more shuttle buses. Isn't there one in every neighbourhood?

For me I just time the shuttle and it takes me to the park and ride and I save $3 a day! I find it convenient but also noticed that my shuttle bus is often quite empty.

Are shuttle buses being underused?

All but the very newest communities in Calgary have bus service, and the City of Calgary requires all residences to be a maximum of 400 meters from a bus stop. The communities that don't have service (which are usually brand new, numbering in the low hundreds of residents) will get service when their community grows a bit.

As for use or underuse, it really depends on which route, and what time of day. There's different types of routes: mainline (examples 2, 3, 20), express (examples 133, 179, 116), feeder (examples 16, 22, 55), special shuttle (examples 502, 506), BRT (301, 302, 305), and community shuttle (examples 429, 440, 456).

I believe what you're asking about are feeder routes or community shuttles. Some are actually quite popular while others barely see any use.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I think it makes sense to things like this for suburban cities, so Calgary isn't overburdened. National parks have enterence passes to cover passes, so I don't think its outrageous for a suburban city.

Saying that... this does bring out the worst in people. What people whine and bitch about for a few hundread bucks. People should feel fortunate to live so well to complain about what they do. North America is (arguably) one of the best places in the world to live and there is a 5% chance of you being born into North America (~330M/7B) where you are given so many resources and opportunities. And then everyone bitches and whines over the smallest complaints. I live in the USA and spend less than 1 week a year in Canada, but because of my work visa, I pay USA taxes and Canadian taxes, and since I'm in the high tax bracket, so while everyone here whines about paying $600 for what they don't use, I'm paying probably the a year's worth of salary for some Calgarian's salary of this board to Canada ON TOP of paying USA taxes. But I'm not going to whine about it, because I feel fortunate to be given the opportunities that I have and received a fantastic education in Canada. If you pay a little extra for something you don't use, consider yourself fortunate such that you are given an opportunity to succeed because of where you were born/grew up/educated and that the success you enjoy because of it, you give back to the community.

I was actually having a similar discussion with me GF, all 3 of her sisters are 'Townies' who live in Airdrie, Okotoks and Irricana and commute to work downtown.

And yeah, 'it only takes 25 minutes and I get a yard....'

I dont know, or pretend to know what the right answer is. But at some point the City of Calgary and the surrounding (I want to say it, but I wont!) communities are going to have to come to a compromise because the current setup is completely unsustainable. The City cannot endure subsidizing the services that they do as more and more people move out but continue to utilize.

frinkprof said it best, its the difference between operating expenditures and capital costs, as the City subsidizes the net difference in operating costs after user fees the difference has to come from somewhere, and the people not living here are burdening the system, but are not burdened themselves with the costs.

And I'm speaking in general, theres more to this than just Park and Ride (dont give me this (N') crap, its a three letter word, we can take the time to spell it out) it applies to all services and infrastructure that includes ones that dont have user fees.

Calgary is in the position where the number of people whose livelihoods depend on the City, but who dont participate in the payment and cost structure of the City itself is growing more and more as costs in the City continue to increase.

Eventually, something has to give. At this moment, many people are getting something for nothing, granted, they want to keep it that way, who wouldnt? And at the moment the situation hasnt reached its critical mass. But it will at some point.

Further, over my time being involved with 'Townies' and 'Parasite Communities' I have come to understand that I use these terms as tongue in cheek humour, and for the most part everyone gets a bit of a laugh. But very soon its going to have to stop, because if we continue to draw that line in the sand where 'they're different than us' then the process of reaching an amicable agreement in the future is going to be much harder. Already, in this thread alone you can see several posters getting very defensive about it.