When do they finally Axe Park N Ride?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Flames0910

Not totally related to parking, but is there any reason the city couldn't afford machines that give your quarters back on a $2.50 transit ticket?

It's not the cost of the machines, it's the value of the quarters.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Rathji

But there are user fees for many of those services, on top of the tax costs to the public. How much is it for a kid in High School per year? How about for a trip to the clinic for some services? If I go to a City pool or golf course, I need to pay a user fee. That fee doesn't get charged to my neighbour, or the guy in Okotoks, does it?

Why should high demand parking be any different?

No one is claiming a person from Okotoks (for example) should pay more than the normal transit fee, even though CT operating costs are subsidized by Calgarian's taxes. We are just saying that the convenience of driving to a CTrain station and parking for a day in a high demand spot over taking a (sometimes crappy) feeder bus from your neighbour to that same station should cost extra money.

That fee is equal for all people, city residents or not, who choose to have that extra convenience.

Not what I read in this thread. Perhaps you should be addressing what you just said to Ducay, who said

Its times like this when I'm glad you don't live within the city limits. Even after they get rid of the $3 fees, I hope they implement some sort of extra charge for people from Okotoks, Airdrie, Cochrane, De Winton, to use our C-train.

[Chump]

Originally Posted by Shazam

The NW leg parking lots are only about 1/2 full now.

This is certainly not true for Brentwood. The lot fills up a lot slower but it is usually pretty much full by 11.

[Flames0910]

Originally Posted by SebC

It's not the cost of the machines, it's the value of the quarters.

Yeah, I know -_-

I bet it adds up to a pretty lucrative value at the end of the year. But setting the ticket price at $x.50 and not providing change still comes across as being really cheap to me.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Rathji

No one is claiming a person from Okotoks (for example) should pay more than the normal transit fee, even though CT operating costs are subsidized by Calgarian's taxes. We are just saying that the convenience of driving to a CTrain station and parking for a day in a high demand spot over taking a (sometimes crappy) feeder bus from your neighbour to that same station should cost extra money.

What about the tax dollars generated by tourists visiting the city of Calgary or say NHL teams for that matter. They help to keep businesses going that in turn pay taxes to the city.

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by Shazam

It is free after six and on weekends. You sure you take the train?

Apparently not enough

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by TylerSVT

I think what everyone here is forgetting is the COST of riding the train.

Im not talking about dollar figures, im talking about COST. IE, what is your valuation on riding the train?

For myself, $3 is way too much money to spend when i have to sit in a smelly trains that are never heated properly, breakdown consistantly and are almost always overcrowded.
...

The cost of riding the train compared to the value riding the train are not tied to the cost/value of parking at the train station.

You pay to park at the station because it is easier for you than taking the bus. You might have bought a house in an area that the buses don't run in times that work with your schedule. You might have also bought a house in a place that wasn't Calgary so you could pay less for your house or property tax. Whatever that reason is, I am not judging you. You make the choice if taking the bus, at whatever cost in time or discomfort that is to you is harder than paying the $3.

You pay to ride the train because it costs less money or is more convenient than driving. Whatever the reason is you do it. Part of that cost is dealing with the conditions: You might be freezing your balls off while the idiot down the car from you is opening all the windows. You might be sardines to the glass. You might just hate sitting next to people who sleep and void their bowels of all gases while doing so. You might be able to sleep and read. Whatever those conditions are, you can choose to pay to ride the train or choose some alternative mode of transportation if the cost of gas, parking is less than the value you place on the convenience you are feeling when riding the train.

Complaining about parking prices when talking about the train ride is like complaining about gas you had to buy when you went to see the Flames suck a bag of roosters last night. They are somewhat related but the price of one doesn't have any bearing on how good the other thing should be.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Dion

What about the tax dollars generated by tourists visiting the city of Calgary or say NHL teams for that matter. They help to keep businesses going that in turn pay taxes to the city.

NHL teams use the C-Train?

I am sure people who commute to the city every day contribute a good deal to the economy of our city. This point isn't really valid though, because regardless of what these people contribute, it certainly isn't, on average, equal to someone who works here, contributes to the economy AND pays taxes.

The point is, the user of a service that has been shown to have value should be paying that value rather than it being paid for by someone else's taxes.

Originally Posted by redforever

Not what I read in this thread. Perhaps you should be addressing what you just said to Ducay, who said

You are right.

[Flames0910]

The cost of riding the train compared to the value riding the train are not tied to the cost/value of parking at the train station.

I think you're being more than a little myopic here and with the ultra-rationalistic argument that follows...

[frinkprof]

Warning: This will be a long multi-quote post. I'm late to the game and want to reply to a lot of posts. If you have posted in this thread, chances are I am replying to your post below.

Originally Posted by guzzy

THey have been looking at this for years. They want to extend C train lines into remote communities but it will be years before we see it

Not correct. Serving outlying communities with transit is the domain of the Calgary Regional Partnership. Their latest proposal is to have buses serving the larger communities in the short term and then eventually have commuter rail (not C-Train) similar to the GO system in the Greater Toronto Area and West Coast Express in the Greater Vancouver Regional District in the long term.

The City of Airdrie's Intercity Express (ICE) service was the first out of the chute, starting earlier this month. Cochrane is likely next.

Originally Posted by Super-Rye

I hope they get rid of it. Before charging for parking they should be making sure that everyone who uses the system is paying for it. This whole honor system is garbage and the fact that I now have to pay twice to use the c-train while other jack-offs just walk on is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by iggnuef

It's ridiculous that you can just walk on the train without paying! Its the biggest joke, but it fits in with their service which is a joke aswell!!

The incremental costs of providing almost any combination of large increases to enforcement patrols, station attendants, or turnstiles is more expensive than the revenue it would bring in via reduced fare evasion.

Fare evasion would not be curtailed completely even with turnstiles (which are impossible to implement on many stations in Calgary due to their design, by the way). Fare evasion still occurs on systems that have turnstiles. More than half of LRT users access the stations using feeder routes, so that demographic is already paying for a fare/pass before they even get to the station anyway.

See the link provided by SebC for more on this.

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

So the C-trains are being utilized less. The exact opposite of what Nenshi wants. I would also assume that the people who aren't using the c-train still have places to go, so the roads are busier than they were before.

Bolded is not exactly correct. Myriad factors contribute to less transit (and road) utilization over the past year or so. Biggest: recession. Due to this many people do in fact have less places to go.

Originally Posted by LGA

Keep the charge if you have to, just start selling a monthly version of it or something. It's annoying having to do the whole thing every morning, wish I just had a little tag or something I could hang off my rearview mirror.

Monthly parking pass, $60:

http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/p...ow_to_use.html

Originally Posted by kevman

Is it? Should it? Maybe it's just me but in my opinion you should be paying for the service you use (to an extent, it is "public" after all). Parking and riding from Crowfoot to downtown should cost more then just riding from Crowfoot which should cost more then riding from Sunnyside.

The operation of the service will be paid for. It used to be by all transit users and Calgary taxpayers, now it is those two plus those who pay the Park 'N Ride fee. As for the second part of your post, you are implying a zone system, which is a whole other can of worms in principle. Frankly, they have proven to be more unpopular than this parking fee is in other jurisdictions (Vancouver) and create other problems, such as the common case of someone taking the train/bus just over the imaginary zone line.

Originally Posted by Table 5

I think it's ridiculous, and frankly irresponsible, that the city is still using the honor system. The lost revenue must be staggering when you think about it going back 30 years. Who knows how many new trains, buses, or miles of track they've thrown out the window because of it.

Debunked above and link provided by SebC.

Originally Posted by Table 5

Time to step in to the 20th century and institute a proper metro card system (no stupid coins or tokens please) where you pay to play, and can do it conveniently. I think this is much more important then any park and ride fee.

Forthcoming. Should be in place by 2014 as far as I know.

Originally Posted by GGG

I think the transit Ridership drop had more to do with the recession than the park and ride fee. Park n ride users only accounted for 15% of transit use anyway.

Correct with a small fix. Park N' Ride only accounts for 10-15% of LRT users, and thus less for the overall system. Somewhere in the 5-8% range I'd guess. Also, the ridership drop really wasn't that much anyway, about 1%, while unemployment was up by considerably more than that.

Originally Posted by TylerSVT

Honestly im all for increasing transit safety and but the city just wants money. Why can they spend 20 million or whatever for that stupid pedestrian bridge but not bother putting proper heaters in the train.. or making it so that some Hobo dosent smokes dope on the train beside me...

The problem with this logic is that you are saying that it must be "A" (The Peace Bridge) that must be sacrificed to make "B" (heaters, or ostensibly police enforcement) happen. Why not, say:

- SE BRT ($25M)
- (half of) Metis Trail extension ($49M)
- (5/6ths of) Road/Rail grade separation on Barlow Trail at 50th Ave. ($30M)
- (~30% of) NW LRT extension to Tuscany ($92M)
- (a little more than) 16th Ave./68th St. NW intersection improvements ($19M)

Originally Posted by Chingas

I have a question regarding the C-train. Was it funded wholely by the city coffers?

I have no proof but I'm pretty sure that the province ponied up a large portion.

It is important to note the difference between capital expenses and operational expenses. The capital costs of the C-Train over the years is some combination of Province of Alberta, Government of Canada and the City of Calgary. It would take some significant number crunching to determine the exact split, but from what I know, the Province might have the edge on the City, with the feds making up only a small amount.

Operations is all City of Calgary. The Park N' Ride fee goes into the operation of the system, as do fares. They do not pay for capital projects. This is why it is a fallacy for those who do not pay City of Calgary taxes to think that they contribute the same amount to the system as those who do, in the context of the Park N' Ride fee debate. This is of course aside from the other fallacy pointed out by ken0042 that the Provincial and federal taxes everyone pays goes into projects all over the respective jurisdictions in proportion to population. I.e. provincial money buys both concrete and rails in Calgary, and health centres, pavement, etc. in Chestermere and Langdon.

Originally Posted by Dion

Before I moved to High River I paid taxes in the City of Calgary for over 25 years. My taxes helped to build most of the LRT system that Calgarians use today. So no, you're not subsidizing the few times I use the transit system.

False. Each time anyone steps on a bus or train, every Calgary taxpayer is subsidizing that ride. You no longer pay taxes in Calgary, so you no longer subsidize any ride you or anyone else takes. In those 25 years you mention, you subsidized, in part, every transit ride taken,
but not a single one since the day you stopped paying Calgary taxes.

Originally Posted by Slava

As another response, the reason that people are "entitled to free parking..." is because they are paying customers for the service. Same reason that you are given free parking at Chinook Centre or most other businesses in the city that rely on your being there.

There's no such thing as free parking. The price of parking you do or do not use at Chinook Mall is built into every pair of sunglasses or Rock and Republic jeans. The price of parking at LRT stations was being paid for by a combination of Calgary taxpayers and all transit users (90+% of which didn't use it). Now it is being paid for by those two plus those who pay the Park N' Ride fee.

Originally Posted by Dion

Both are looking for revenue. Charging a fee for parking only discourages transit use - I call it negitive re enforecement. Creative some incentives to get people to use public transit.

To the bolded, only for some. Arguably it encourages many to use more transit by taking feeder buses instead. Speaking generally about incentives, I agree.

Originally Posted by Dion

You're missing the point. Isn't Calgary transit always struggling to meet costs? Don't they need more revenue?

In a sense, never. The service isn't out to make a profit or to break even based solely on the user-paid revenues, hence the public in public transit. Operational costs are met via some combination of user paid revenues or municipal taxes, but never solely from one.

Originally Posted by Dion

That would be a great idea if the feeder bus system wasn't so crappy. Too many communities don't have a good feeder system to get them to the station. A good friend lives in one of those communities and drives to the station.

Chicken/egg.

Increased feeder bus usage (which the Park N' Ride fee has facilitated) can lead, in part, to better service.

Also, was research on transit service not factored into the choice to live in such a community? If it was, then it looks like that person accepted that reality.

Originally Posted by Rathji

Anyone know if there are any other free park and rides for BRT bus routes?

Yes. Westside (closed due to West LRT construction, will be replaced by parkade at 69th Street Station), Sircocco, and Northpointe. Symon's Valley and a few more in the southeast will be next.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Dion

At one time IIRC they charged a fee for those wishing to have a reserved spot at some lots.

This was only at the Fish Creek/Lacombe Station. A portion of the parking spaces were reserved for a fee. This program went out when the Park N' Ride fee was brought in.

Originally Posted by redforever

I live outside of Calgary, take the CT maybe once or twice a year.

The problems Calgary Transit experiences are not exacerbated because of casual users from the country, who by the way have paid taxes towards the CTrain as well.

Not taxes that pay for operations, see above.

Originally Posted by Shazam

Charging the fee did seem to increase bus usage to c-train stations.

Correct, as far as I've heard anyway.

Originally Posted by Dion

If demand is high why are the lots half empty?

That depends on what your definition of "high" is. The correct statement is that demand is high enough have the lots be half full, if that is indeed the case for the average lot.

This has to be weighed against a few other things, including the convenience provided by being able to find a spot in the middle of the day, and also the opportunity cost of selling the Park N' Ride space to development interests (which do exist at many locations, and thus deserve a place in the supply/demand debate).

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Chump

This is certainly not true for Brentwood. The lot fills up a lot slower but it is usually pretty much full by 11.

Really? I have never, ever seen it more than 1/2 full since the charge went into effect.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Rathji

NHL teams use the C-Train?

I am sure people who commute to the city every day contribute a good deal to the economy of our city. This point isn't really valid though, because regardless of what these people contribute, it certainly isn't, on average, equal to someone who works here, contributes to the economy AND pays taxes.

NHL teams for example use the hotels, resturants, bars etc. They generate revenue/income for businesses that in turn pay business taxes to the city. Taxes you say subsidise the transit system.

The point is, the user of a service that has been shown to have value should be paying that value rather than it being paid for by someone else's taxes.

I have no problems paying the $3 fee.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Dion

I have no problems paying the $3 fee.

Nor do I. In fact, as a non resident I pay $100 or whatever the cost is to use the Calgary Library.

And I would certainly hope that no one would expect me to pay an extra fee for using the Rockyview Hospital if necessary. Even though I live in the country, that is my designated hospital.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Flames0910

But setting the ticket price at $x.50 and not providing change still comes across as being really cheap to me.

It is, but I don't know how it's really an issue for Calgarians (different for visitors). Just buy the ten packs and keep the tickets in your wallet... you'll get through 'em eventually.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by redforever

Nor do I. In fact, as a non resident I pay $100 or whatever the cost is to use the Calgary Library.

My Alberta library card from High River allows me to rent books and use the computers in Calgarys libraries.

And I would certainly hope that no one would expect me to pay an extra fee for using the Rockyview Hospital if necessary. Even though I live in the country, that is my designated hospital.

There's a lot of people from Calgary using High River's hospital and ER. The wait times for anytime i've had to use the ER have been less than half an hour. Now it's going up because of all the outside useage

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Dion

My Alberta library card from High River allows me to rent books and use the computers in Calgarys libraries.

Unfortunately, the hamlet of Priddis has no library. It has a gas station, a post office, a handful of stores, a community center, a few apartments and homes.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

This was only at the Fish Creek/Lacombe Station. A portion of the parking spaces were reserved for a fee. This program went out when the Park N' Ride fee was brought in.

Err... not according to your link.

Originally Posted by frinkprof

http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/p...ow_to_use.html

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by redforever

But we all pay taxes, and as such, don't crap the bed because someone else uses a service that we both have paid for.

We all pay taxes, but we don't all pay the same taxes. When I go to Lethbridge and ride a bus or use a washroom or garbage can at a public park, I am being subsidized by the Lethbridge taxpayer.

The transit driver and the electricity powering the train, among other things, is being paid for by the Calgary taxpayer, but not the Okotoks, Cochrane, High Prairie or Oyen taxpayers. They do not share that cost, and it is the Calgary taxpayers' alone to bear.

The reality is that one-offs like once-or-twice-a-year tourists aren't as big an issue as chronic 250-days-a-year bedroom community dwelling users. The latter is a significant group.

Originally Posted by Flames0910

Not totally related to parking, but is there any reason the city couldn't afford machines that give your quarters back on a $2.50 transit ticket?

Yes, lack of funding. The good news for you is that this particular gap has been closed, and new fare payment systems will be in place by 2014.

Originally Posted by TylerSVT

I've been to Seoul and other major cities in Asian countries and they have it right, you pay a certain fee for transit, you get a discount when you are done riding (say tickets were 4 dollars, when you get to your station you get a refund based up your distance to the next stop. If i went one stop i get 3.75 back, if i went ten stops i get 1 dollar back etc.) Everything is done via turnstyle, the doors close when they want and the trains are ALWAYS on time.

Our system is flawed, they should invest in a better SYSTEM of doing tansit, IE. turnstyles and oyster cards.

Remember that you're comparing Calgary to a city with 20 times the metro population.

Turnstiles: incremental cost of implementation and operations higher than revenues gained.

Oyster(ish) cards: forthcoming.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by SebC

Err... not according to your link.

I stand corrected. I think the last information I had was from before the Park N' Ride fee was implemented and they were discussing getting rid of the reserved parking program at Fish Creek/Lacombe. I guess they never ended up doing that.