This thread has taken an interesting turn from poaching to eating fish while still alive.
Almost everyone will agree that poaching is bad... and what seems to offend us most is that someone kills an animal for just a very small part and wastes the rest. It is an issue of waste, not cruelty, because unless you don't eat meat, its pretty hard to argue against, for example, killing a tiger and packaging all of its meat for sale (and who cares if the penis is the most expensive part?). Now if that tiger is near extinct or is endangered, that's another matter, but I've enjoyed a buffalo burger in the last few months. I wouldn't eat such a burger if the buffalo were near extinct, but its been brought back.
The act of killing one animal to eat it does not offend me. Killing it to eat one part does. Especially if its something stupid like a horn used as a gimmick. It offends me because it shows how self centered and profit motivated we can be. And it shows a certain disrespect for life.
Now the live fish brings a different consideration to the table. Is the fish suffering? If it is, eating it live offends me, and it would offend me to watch someone else do the same thing. The reason why is, you are experiencing pleasure due to the torture of something else. But we don't really know what or if the fish feels anything at that point, but still I wouldn't do it. I suspect strongly it is hurting the fish. At the same time, lop its head off 5 minutes earlier, or even cook it live (i.e. lobster, crab) and I take no issue. Though on occasion I've felt guilty throwing a lobster into a pot.
Like it or not, we feed on death. Though how we kill and what we kill does matter.
Eat Fido? Hell never, but I wouldn't judge someone in a culture that does. We don't have a monopoly on morality. Far from.
Last edited by Kjesse; 07-20-2010 at 01:19 AM.
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Chinese culture definitely has a sickening side when it comes to the treatment of animals.
For example the zoos there are not exactly what we're used to seeing here:
Although to be fair, this attitude is propably pretty common around other parts of Asia. This is from S. Korea
There's tons of this stuff.
I first heard about this stuff from my friends who visited China. At one place they had an animal (a panda IIRC) in what was basically a pit, basically just a hole in the ground with a fence around it so people don't fall in. People amused themselves by throwing stuff at the animal, everything from rocks to candy.
Generally speaking, for a lot of people in China the idea that animals are something more than a source for amusement, food and goods is just weird.
Those videos make me furious. It would be a fitting punishment to soak the people responsible in chum and dip them in and out of shark infested water. Disgusting.
I guess we're not talking about S. Africa anymore, are we?
Well I guess the discussion has moved to the source of the demand for these animal parts, and is focusing on Asia, China in particular. But the article suggests there is also demand in the Middle East, where the rhino horns are bought by rich trophy hunters. Probably also into the European black market, I suspect.
My girlfriend is Cantonese and she's basically said the same thing. But please, continue with the goofy lambasting of an ancient and glorious civilization. More youtube clips!
I am sorry, but calling China glorious in this point in history is laughable. Lets go away from animal cruelty for a second and speak of human rights violations.
The China we see in the media represents maybe 10% of the reality. The reality is this:
Rampant use of child labour.
Factory workers basically being held hostage by wages so low they are forced into living in factory work camps that barely allow them to scrape by.
The abandonment of thousands of infant girls every year because they are not as "profitable" long term to parents.
A thriving black market for children especially males.
2 MILLION citizens displaced from their homes for the Olympics without compensation or relocation, and those that tried to fight it were jailed and tortured.
Oh...... and that little Tibet thing.
The list goes on and on and on......
I know many of these things are governmental issues, but to call this Country "glorious" in today's day and age is simply laughable.
The sad thing is, as I look around this room, and this machine that I am typing this message on, I am indirectly supporting this regime with all the crap I have that is made there. So in a way I suppose I am a hypocrite.
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I am sorry, but calling China glorious in this point in history is laughable. Lets go away from animal cruelty for a second and speak of human rights violations.
The China we see in the media represents maybe 10% of the reality. The reality is this:
Rampant use of child labour.
Factory workers basically being held hostage by wages so low they are forced into living in factory work camps that barely allow them to scrape by.
The abandonment of thousands of infant girls every year because they are not as "profitable" long term to parents.
A thriving black market for children especially males.
2 MILLION citizens displaced from their homes for the Olympics without compensation or relocation, and those that tried to fight it were jailed and tortured.
Oh...... and that little Tibet thing.
The list goes on and on and on......
I know many of these things are governmental issues, but to call this Country "glorious" in today's day and age is simply laughable.
The sad thing is, as I look around this room, and this machine that I am typing this message on, I am indirectly supporting this regime with all the crap I have that is made there. So in a way I suppose I am a hypocrite.
I absolutely and totally agree with you. However, if you read back, I was just mocking your silly moralism.
North Americans aren't angels in many areas, and sometimes PETA has some valid points. But at least our main food supply of beef, chicken and pork is sustainable, and typically (as there have been isolated incidents) for the better part, our animals are killed humanely.
Not sure if our method of raising animals is that much better. Not defending chinese culture but North American practices of raising live stock in feed lots isn't that humane.
I concede that those are 2 different points, (way of killing the animal vs raising the animal) but I believe it's relevant.
Free Range farming is slowly changing this but I believe it will be past my life time before mainstream farming practices changes.
Chinese culture definitely has a sickening side when it comes to the treatment of animals.
Not sure why I watch these videos, I know I will just get upset.. but the saddest part of it all is the bear walking after the trainer... on his hind legs afterwards.
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The sad thing is, as I look around this room, and this machine that I am typing this message on, I am indirectly supporting this regime with all the crap I have that is made there. So in a way I suppose I am a hypocrite.
Yes you are. And so are so many other critics out there. People want the world to be self-rightous and they want to be noble, but I bet if it came to sacrificing a bit of their life style, they wouldn't.
And why just China? Why not other Asian states? Are things cruel in China vs the Western world? Yes, to think this is a isolated case of cruelty or brutality is, well, just ignorant. This happens in a lot of countries in the world. And even in the Western world, there are tons of things we do for our own selfish reasons that hurt animals or other people in some fashion. The Western world we live in is pretty well known for stepping on the backs of others so we can live a luxurious lifestyle. This might not necessarily be you, but its many people in this world.
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The sad thing is, as I look around this room, and this machine that I am typing this message on, I am indirectly supporting this regime with all the crap I have that is made there. So in a way I suppose I am a hypocrite.
I read your first post, and agreed with most of it. However, you do need to realize that you are being hypocritical if you are of Western European decent.
Europe went through the industrial revolution hundreds of years ago. Child labour, environmental damage, lack of housing and food standards, abuse of animals in cruel zoos and traveling shows were the norm.
China is going through this right now. They were an impoverished country, until all our demand for cheap goods in the West created this transitional period.
If you were to get in a time machine and go back to the industrial revolution you would see far worse things than you see in China today. This does not make it right, but does not make them a barbaric or lesser culture.
As for the poaching, you are bang on with the problem. It is the thirst for these goods that drive poaching. The Chinese now have the money to pay top dollar for it. The reason, the computer you are typing on, the dishes you use, and the car you drive in, that you made the choice to buy based on price point.
So if you want to talk about the source of the problem, start to dig deeper. There is more than one finger to point.
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I but the saddest part of it all is the bear walking after the trainer... onhis hind legs afterwards.
They train them to walk on their hind feet by burning their front pads so they can't put any weight on their front feet.
When they are cubs they burn their feet with a red hot iron, they can do it to the beat of a drum to make them "dance".
They keep bears caged up tight and drain the bile out of them, (they call it farming) look it up if you dare. 7000 bears being milked for bile in China.
I know this statement isn't going to make me popular..... but until Chinese people accept that chopping phallic shaped parts off of animals isn't going to give them super libidos, give them bigger westernized penors, or provide miracle cures, most exotic animals will be extinct by 2050.
I take great offense to this.
You are an uneducated, uninformed, and ignorant moron. Chinese people aren't the only kind of people who this market caters to. Every race and culture of this world contribute to their own extent.
Asians utilize herbal remedies yes, but that doesn't mean that endangered species are being used consistently, as you are implying. There are plenty of other cultures in the world (including North America) that do just as bad, if not worse things to our world.
If you don't like what you see at an herbal store, don't go in. Don't read the labels, and be disgusted because deer penis is being used in some herbal remedy. Deer aren't hunted down for their fallice, and left to die.
You should really do some research before you post such ignorant babble.
You are an uneducated, uninformed, and ignorant moron. Chinese people aren't the only kind of people who this market caters to. Every race and culture of this world contribute to their own extent.
Asians utilize herbal remedies yes, but that doesn't mean that endangered species are being used consistently, as you are implying. There are plenty of other cultures in the world (including North America) that do just as bad, if not worse things to our world.
If you don't like what you see at an herbal store, don't go in. Don't read the labels, and be disgusted because deer penis is being used in some herbal remedy. Deer aren't hunted down for their fallice, and left to die.
You should really do some research before you post such ignorant babble.
wiki: The penis of a tiger when consumed is said to enhance male virility and is an aphrodisiac.[1] In parts of southeast Asia it is seen as a treatment for erectile dysfunction.[2] This has contributed to the poaching of tigers for their benefits, the penis being just one of many of its assets.[1] As a result the tiger penis is often sold on the black market in China.
also: The penis of a tiger, deer, turtle or cow is consumed in restaurants in parts of China and southeast Asia and is commonly offered as a soup delicacy.[4] People have been known to spend up to $5700 (£3000) on a particularly rare tiger penis dish, something that needed to be ordered months in advance.[1] A dried tiger penis is more commonly sold at around $2500 (£1300) in Singapore and Taiwan
Europe went through the industrial revolution hundreds of years ago. Child labour, environmental damage, lack of housing and food standards, abuse of animals in cruel zoos and traveling shows were the norm.
China is going through this right now. They were an impoverished country, until all our demand for cheap goods in the West created this transitional period.
Yup exactly. And China is starting to move up into lots of business and science, just as the USA did after destroying the world through the industrial revolution. Look at any tech company and they have offices in China. Any Asian will be asked whether they speak Manderin or whatever language in India to work in Shanghai and Bangalore. Top schools such as Stanford are offering courses like entrepreneurship in Asia (EE402T at Stanford university). Top MBA schools such as Stanford GSB and Berkeley/Columbia Haas do their networking in China and India. Large, governing technical societies such as IEEE expect huge growth in Asian countries and plan their 10-20 year itineraries accordingly, and how they budget out these things... well lets just say, they expect China to be equal or exceed the USA in the fields of science and engineering (not just manufacturing). The idea some people have of Asian countries are very outdated.
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Last edited by Phanuthier; 07-20-2010 at 12:23 PM.
In Canada we have bear hunts for sport, or in other words for no reason at all.
I lived for most of my childhood in bear country, and I wouldn't say it's for nothing. Black bear populations easily get out of control and are higher than they normally would be in nature because they thrive around humans. There were several times in my childhood where we literally had to stay in the house because there were bears in the yard.
If we didn't cull them, they would eat themselves out of house and home and likely become diseased and aggressive. Personally, I don't hunt and don't really get the enjoyment some people get from it, but unfortunately, it is a necessary evil.
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