Vancouver Humane Society Anti-Stampede Ad in the Herald

[hockeycop]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

My family has been ranching in Alberta since 1882. I also grew up around rodeo competing in the Saddle Bronc into my mid 20's. Now I was taught to believe at a very early age that rodeo stock, bulls and horses in the rough stock events, had the easiest job in the world. They only work 8 seconds a week. Which isn't exactly true if you consider the travel, being loaded in and standing in the chute, the 8 seconds of the ride followed by being cleared out of the arena and ran through the stripping chute. Non the less it is a pretty easy life for the most part.

The stock contractors have a lot of money invested in the rough stock. It is their product and they get hired and paid on the performance of their rough stock. Stock contractors will freak out if you do anything to harm their animals while you are putting your gear on them in the chute. Some contractors for instance will give a young bareback rider a tongue lashing if he steps on the back of the horse while he is getting down (if your a world champion it doesn't seem to be a problem). Another time I saw a contractor get very upset with a bull rider who had the buckles of his spurs on the inside of his boot instead of the outside. For the most part these guys really care for these animals.

Now the timed event stock on the other hand is a bit of a different story. A calf can only be roped for so long because it gets too big. The steers in the bull dogging and team roping are only good for a season as well. So they are more expendable if you will. Now people don't go out of their way to intentionally hurt these animals. Accidents do unfortunately happen from time to time. Mostly to the steers by being accidentally stepped on by a horse resulting in broken legs. There are also some rules in place to protect the animals. For instance in calf roping you are disqualified and fined if you pull a calf over backward when it hits the end of your rope. Steers in the team roping wear horn wraps that prevent the rope from hurting the steers when they are roped around the horns.

In my experience more cowboys will be injured in the rough stock events by far compared to the bulls and horses. Horses can hurt themselves in the chutes when they are younger and wilder. Once they become veterans they pretty much know the routine and won't cause too many problems for the cowboys or themselves in the chutes. Same with the bulls.

Now out of the bucking horses, bulls, steers, and calves that are used in rodeo. The calves get the most attention when it comes to animal rights advocates or groups. They are very small compared to the horse and cowboy chasing them, although the calf would out weigh the cowboy 99% of the time. In my experience I can not remember a single incident where a calf was killed in the arena. I'm not saying it couldn't have happened, but it was infrequent enough that I don't recall a single death. Bucking horses on the other hand, I have witnessed many. From horses running into the fence at a full gallop breaking their necks. To horses breaking their legs while they are bucking. To horses breaking their backs while they are bucking (this usually happens after the cowboy has been bucked off and the horse just throws its own back out while bucking).

In my opinion it is a just a matter of time before a sport like calf roping will be out lawed or changed drastically due to public pressure. It may not happen for some time, but the trend of society is definitely heading that way. Rodeo for the most part is dying a slow death anyway. It is expensive and pretty tough on the body.

Very well said. I am an ex-bullrider and support everything you have said here.

Thanks.

Also, screw the Vancouver Humane Society.

[Hevishot]

[/QUOTE] Also, screw the Vancouver Humane Society.[/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly its not their Stampede nor there place to worry about what we do in Calgary. If people dont like what goes on in this city they know which highway takes them home.

[troutman]

My thoughts exactly its not their Stampede nor there place to worry about what we do in Calgary. If people dont like what goes on in this city they know which highway takes them home.

There are plenty of rodeos in BC they could complain about.

http://www.rodeobc.com/guide.html

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by troutman

There are plenty of rodeos in BC they could complain about.

http://www.rodeobc.com/guide.html

Largest ranch in Canada is in BC.

[Resolute 14]

Yup. Plenty of other things for PETA North to whine about, but like PETA, they care far more about self-promotion than animal welfare. Picketing some small rodeo in podunk, BC doesn't get them off the same way protesting the worlds biggest rodeo does. Its guaranteed national exposure.

[burn_baby_burn]

The rodeo in Cloverdale BC is the second largest in Canada next to the Calgary Stampede.

http://www.cloverdalerodeo.com/

[krazycanuck]

Thanks for the investment in the local economy Vancouver Humane Society!

[Daradon]

I'm one of those who is stuck on the fence too.

As people have mentioned here, it is impossible to defend completely. However as others have mentioned, it's not nearly as bad as a lot of other things.

Heck, the whole meat industry could be cleaned up better before worrying about things like the Stampede.

So I'm not really sure. For me though, the Stampede was never really about taking in any of the rodeo events. It's about watching street performers and fireworks. Eating sinfully all day. Maybe taking in the fair. Seeing a lot of great concerts. Getting completely hammered. And propositioning as many hotties as possible. Who are always sexily dressed and much easier this time of year.

[Regulator75]

4 horses dead.

http://news.ca.msn.com/canada/cp-art...entid=24856051

Calgary Stampede officials say they are upset by the deaths of four horses and a serious injury to a rider in the first few days of the annual rodeo, but at least one animal welfare organization says it's all "depressingly predictable."

Three horses died on Monday alone.

[Azure]

Lets look at the actual article, shall we?

The day started when a horse in a chuckwagon team suffered a fatal heart attack while doing routine training exercises.

I don't know if you've ever ridden a horse, but every single person that owns horses does training stuff with them. This could happen anywhere.

Just a few hours later, during the novice saddle bronc event, a horse without a rider bucked so hard it broke its back and had to be euthanized.

Ever watched horses run around? They tend to buck. Even in the wild.

Then on Monday evening during a chuckwagon race, a horse being ridden by an outrider for rodeo legend Kelly Sutherland pulled up with a shoulder injury and collapsed.

Does that happen in the 'wild?' All the time. I've personally seen a couple horses get hurt on just routine rides.

Now, not saying that the horses aren't under stress, but running and bucking is what horses do.

[peter12]

And not surprising that the young outrider getting paid $150/heat for his trouble gets nary a sympathetic word from the Vancouver Humane Society.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I always laugh because people forget that nature and wild animals are not really there for our pleasure, they're there to kill us in truly horrific and probably painful ways.

Given an equal chance a bull is going to instinctively fight back. Given a chance a calf is going to evade the roper, grow up into a superintelligent cow, and one day knock on the cowboys door and upon getting an answer tie up the cowboy, ball gag him and violently violate him.

Nature works in a cycle.

The nature that you live in cant possibly be the same nature that I live in.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by peter12

And not surprising that the young outrider getting paid $150/heat for his trouble gets nary a sympathetic word from the Vancouver Humane Society.

You're joking, right? The cowboy chooses to participate, if he gets injured, it was his own risk. Why would you expect the VHS to say anything? I'm pretty sure they're interested in animal welfare... not cowboy safety.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Azure

Lets look at the actual article, shall we?

I agree that we should not be too concerned about the first horse, but IMO the other two died from stresses they would not experience in the "wild". Horses do run, but I don't see them buck much in the normal course of things.

I'm not against the Stampede, but I don't think the last two deaths you mention are normal in any way.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

You're joking, right? The cowboy chooses to participate, if he gets injured, it was his own risk. Why would you expect the VHS to say anything? I'm pretty sure they're interested in animal welfare... not cowboy safety.

The horses are bred to race. They don't know anything else.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by fotze

Why is eating the kill seen as more moral than putting it on the wall?

You have probably 85,000 meals in your life, so killing the thing and having it as a meal for a few of them followed by shatting it out 10 hours later, thats more worthy of killing. At least a head on the wall is more honoring to the deceased, there every day, you remember it, freaks out the kids.

Do we eat a loved one when they die or do we put them in an urn on the mantle?

HUGE difference, IMO.

You love your loved ones because they have been in your life for a long period of time and/or had a significant impact on your life. You put them in an urn on the mantle to remember them and continue that feeling of closeness. You don't eat them, even pets, because they carry significantly more meaning to you than a source of food (this seems a very interesting thing to comment on by the way, haha).

Any animals you kill have been in your life for a few hours at most. They don't end up on your mantle because you felt any personal connection to them or loved them. They're there because you want to show the world how awesome of a hunter you are or else it goes well with the rest of the decor in your living room. They are really nothing more than a trophy, and I would imagine that's where the morality comes in to the picture. The Stanley Cup is an inanimate object whereas a moose or deer or whatever was once a living creature and yet both represent the same sense of achievement.

Of note, I personally am not opposed to hunting if it is used for food. To me there is something wrong with killing another creature simply to mount it's head above your fireplace though. It just seemed odd to treat hunting as a sport where the other side didn't even know it was playing, and the animal as nothing more than a trophy. That said, if you want to use the animal for food and then mount its head on your mantle and make a shag carpet out of its skin then go nuts.

[Suzles]

Originally Posted by Azure

Lets look at the actual article, shall we?

I don't know if you've ever ridden a horse, but every single person that owns horses does training stuff with them. This could happen anywhere.



Ever watched horses run around? They tend to buck. Even in the wild.



Does that happen in the 'wild?' All the time. I've personally seen a couple horses get hurt on just routine rides.

Now, not saying that the horses aren't under stress, but running and bucking is what horses do.

I have been around horses for over 45 years - working with them and owning them. I was a riding instructress (English style) for many of those years. I have never personally known a horse drop dead. The only instance I can recall was Lucinda Green's horse Wideawake dropping dead whilst cantering round on his victory lap after winning Badminton (a three day event). The cause was found to be a heart attack as a result of the administration of the anti inflammatory drug phenyl butazoladin (bute). This drug was subsequently banned for all horse sports. I am concerned that rodeo horses are not under the same rules for competition. Does anyone know if the horses are drug tested?

Horses will buck to some degree for fun but the only reason rodeo horses buck is because of the bucking strap that is cinched on them. Horses are a prey animal and those animals are bucking to remove the strap (thinking they are being attacked - which, of course, I feel they are) not the rider - which is why they carry on bucking even when the rider falls off. Those bucking horses are not enjoying themselves - they are scared. Anyone with an ounce of equine knowledge could read the horse's body language to know. Those open mouths speak volumes.

And if you have seen horses injured on routine rides then there was something very wrong there. And I would always blame the rider's in that case for either foolish behaviour or claiming more knowledge or skill level than they have.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by troutman

I agree that we should not be too concerned about the first horse, but IMO the other two died from stresses they would not experience in the "wild". Horses do run, but I don't see them buck much in the normal course of things.

I'm not against the Stampede, but I don't think the last two deaths you mention are normal in any way.

I disagree. Well, except for the horses used in the chuckwagons as I don't think that is normal at all.

The bucking part is quite normal on any ranch. Part of training a horse is 'breaking' him, and at some point you just have to get on and let him get used to having a rider on his back. During that he will try to buck you off.

I have also been on many 'trained' horses that buck almost everytime you get on them. Until they settle down.

Bucking until his 'back' broke indicates to me that the horse had a problem toe begin with.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Suzles

I have been around horses for over 45 years - working with them and owning them. I was a riding instructress (English style) for many of those years. I have never personally known a horse drop dead. The only instance I can recall was Lucinda Green's horse Wideawake dropping dead whilst cantering round on his victory lap after winning Badminton (a three day event). The cause was found to be a heart attack as a result of the administration of the anti inflammatory drug phenyl butazoladin (bute). This drug was subsequently banned for all horse sports. I am concerned that rodeo horses are not under the same rules for competition. Does anyone know if the horses are drug tested?

Horses will buck to some degree for fun but the only reason rodeo horses buck is because of the bucking strap that is cinched on them. Horses are a prey animal and those animals are bucking to remove the strap (thinking they are being attacked - which, of course, I feel they are) not the rider - which is why they carry on bucking even when the rider falls off. Those bucking horses are not enjoying themselves - they are scared. Anyone with an ounce of equine knowledge could read the horse's body language to know. Those open mouths speak volumes.

And if you have seen horses injured on routine rides then there was something very wrong there. And I would always blame the rider's in that case for either foolish behaviour or claiming more knowledge or skill level than they have.

I agree, to a point.

Point is that horses never get injured during normal rides. I've personally seen it happen a lot of times.

[FlamesGirl]

Agree with Suzles - horses may buck or gallop around for FUN, but not to the extent you see as a bronc; the continuous "get this thing off my flank" bucking that goes on.

I've heard different schools of thought on the "does the horse know it's job is to buck?". The cowboys I know all say the horses DO know their job after the first few years, which is why the majority of the horses at the Stampede (the "pros") stand calmly in the chutes until they're released and usually AFTER the cowboy is off, the bucks lessen in height/intensity.

Other people think more along the lines of Suzles - the open mouth, the white eyes, etc is a sign the horse is panicking because of the tight strap around the horse's flanks/croup - the most sensitive areas and the area horses are the most touchy about due to instinct/physiology. It goes back to when predators would jump on the horses and bring them down; that's where most of the vital organs reside and aren't protected by much.

Suzles - I once saw a horse drop dead at a hunter/jumper show. He had just finished his round, weather was moderate, no stress...he walked out of the ring and just collapsed. Let out one whinny and a few convulsions before he died. The vet said he died of a blood clot...one of the worse things I've ever seen.