G20: Toronto in Flames

[Red Ice Player]

True activists shoudn't bother with international summits and other scheduled high profile events. People know well in advance about these events and the the protests that will occur, which make them inevitably come one come all chaotic messes. I would think smaller protests without massive pre publicity would be the way to go. Anarchists would find it much more difficult to do their mayhem in these circumstances. You obviously walk the walk so speaking for myself as a non activist, I would be much more likely to listen to a message that wasn't distorted by violent groups of unemployable low lifes. Thanks for the post. It was far more thought provoking to me than any of this garbage in Toronto on the weekend.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Now I realize that's the kind of stuff that certain people here are against. Calgaryborn has outright said this kind of stuff costs too much. Personally, I look at the suffering of others here and around the world call for action, damn the cost. Someone I can't see Pearson's .7% bankrupting the nation.

I don't believe the Canadian government should tax me to give to poor countries. I also don't believe the money they give to the UN for famine relief is well spent. The UN is a corrupt organization. I also question the stewardship the government demonstrates when they give aid money directly to some of these third world governments.

If the Canadian government wants to see more giving they should reduce government spending with the view of lowering taxes while balancing the budget. Let Canadians be generous with their own money rather than the government being generous with what is not theirs.

As it is right now Canada is running a deficit and therefore is borrowing the money they are giving away. Think about that: The impoverished kids in Canada can look foreward to paying for the current governments generosity along with whatever interest is accured.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

For the guy above that said "Make Poverty History" is like "Make it Sunny Everyday", nothing could be further from the truth. I wear my "Make Poverty History" wristband every day only to promote others to act... I personally have two foster children through Plan Canada, have donated large sums to Engineers Without Borders, have attended and aided many MPH events and locally I have volunteered with food banks and soup kitchens. Are you saying what I am doing is horribly, horribly wrong because it's a futile endeavor?

I am saying that there is no economic system that will allow for poverty to become history. If your slogan was "Help those less fortunate" then fine, but that doesn't appear to be the case. I don't have anything against being active in your community and helping those in need around you. My issue is when it comes to people getting upset that we don't send enough foreign aid to other countries. I'm not really sure why people are so intent to line the pockets of warlords and corrupt government officials.

Now I realize that's the kind of stuff that certain people here are against. Calgaryborn has outright said this kind of stuff costs too much. Personally, I look at the suffering of others here and around the world call for action, damn the cost. Someone I can't see Pearson's .7% bankrupting the nation.

I think that in many cases, simply throwing money at causes does little to solve anything (other than make some people feel better about themselves). I'll admit that I don't know a great deal about MPH, but my fear with many of these organizations is that they are really just a front for an anti-capitalist agenda. At least that often seems to be the case. If I've misunderstood the main cause as being wealth redistribution, then I apologize.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Ark2

I'm not really sure why people are so intent to line the pockets of warlords and corrupt government officials.

And there it is. I knew it was coming.

Why is Warren Buffet and the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation lauded for their work in third world development and helping the poor of developed countries, but governments are slammed for "lining the pockets of warlords" when they do the exact same thing? Nobody got that that was where I was going in the Buffet thread....

And just like Warren and Bill, I'm FOR wealth redistribution. Warren stated that a good deal of his wealth is due to the luck of being born in a rich country, so he sees no reason not to donate his money and see that his wealth gets redistributed to those that were not so lucky. I have come to the same realization, but on a smaller scale. I'm damn lucky to be making six figures and I realize that that luck includes being born in Canada, but I think it would be incredibly greedy to say "I got mine Jack" and ignore the plight of those starving to death. I believe that our wealth NEEDS to be redistributed.

[CaptainCrunch]

Honestly nobody knows or was really effected into action by the peaceful protesters last week.

The ones making the biggest noise were the ones that got the attention in Toronto and it was hugely negative.

The Black Bloc ruined any chance for peaceful discourse about the issues that were being protested. the Anti-Capitalist-League (I think thats their official name) stood by and cheered the black bloc and egged them on, and were fine with the destruction of business property. The nutcase cases were documented by the media and others because they were hilarious in their own way. But nobody really got any attention if they were marching for causes based around human rights or poverty issues because the focus was elsewhere.

If the protesters for these issues were smart they would have either self policed themselves, when they saw Black Bloc members trying to blend back in they should have dragged them down and hauled them to the cops, when they saw those idiots wrecking the police car or damaging property they should have done the above. Then the other issues would have gotten some air time and attention.

Violent protesters are either doing it for the thrill of it and in the words of Michael Caine they just want to watch the world burn. But the side effect is that they effectively silence the other protesters.

[The Goon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Violent protesters are either doing it for the thrill of it and in the words of Michael Caine they just want to watch the world burn.

Now that you mention it, the only thing the weekend was missing was someone dressed up like Heath Ledger's Joker, wandering the streets of downtown Toronto as though he was the mastermind of the whole thing.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by The Goon

Now that you mention it, the only thing the weekend was missing was someone dressed up like Heath Ledger's Joker, wandering the streets of downtown Toronto as though he was the mastermind of the whole thing.

There was a protester dressed as Batman. But he just stood there and looked useless.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

If the protesters for these issues were smart they would have either self policed themselves, when they saw Black Bloc members trying to blend back in they should have dragged them down and hauled them to the cops, when they saw those idiots wrecking the police car or damaging property they should have done the above. Then the other issues would have gotten some air time and attention.

Would you like me to finish my story about the Hare Krishna's attacking the Black Bloc? Trust me, bare-handed attacking people holding weapons didn't work out very well.

And by law, if you attack someone that is smashing windows, you are the one that gets thrown in jail for years. You committed assault against someone committing vandalism. By law, one is considered worse than the other.

[Red Ice Player]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The Black Bloc ruined any chance for peaceful discourse about the issues that were being protested. the Anti-Capitalist-League (I think thats their official name) stood by and cheered the black bloc and egged them on, and were fine with the destruction of business property. .

Lol. The Anti Capitalists were whining on CTV about the cops singling them out on Sunday because they were French speaking. No mention that they were active participants in a riot.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Red Ice Player

Lol. The Anti Capitalists were whining on CTV about the cops singling them out on Sunday because they were French speaking. No mention that they were active participants in a riot.

I wouldn't call them active, but the ones that I saw were certainly cheering on the Black Bloc to destroy symbols of capitalism.

[Red Ice Player]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I wouldn't call them active, but the ones that I saw were certainly cheering on the Black Bloc to destroy symbols of capitalism.

Cheering it on is enabling the behaviour. I consider that active participation. I should have said that before though. Sounds like you had an interesting weekend.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Red Ice Player

Cheering it on is enabling the behaviour. I consider that active participation. I should have said that before though. Sounds like you had an interesting weekend.

A bunch of my clothes smells like smoke and burned gas. I'm sure that set off some sensors at the airport when I left.

I have no respect for the Black Bloc idiots and some of the other protesters that were actively participating.

I knew after watching the violence unfold that the Police tactics were going to change and they weren't going to mess around or take chances on Sunday. I'm glad I didn't go down on Sunday, the cop that questioned me on Saturday was a nice guy and fairly apologetic but firmly told me that it was time to leave the area. I'm sure on Sunday I would have probably been cuffed and questioned a lot more vigorously.

[The Goon]

Some of the weapons picked up on the weekend:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1622761/

Glad the flaming arrows were never used.

[CaptainCrunch]

On Friday during the final walk down they'd found these cache's of weapons along suspected protest routes. They included sharpened sticks, hammers and pickaxes. Masks and gas masks and in a gross moment a few jars filled with urine.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

And there it is. I knew it was coming.

Why is Warren Buffet and the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation lauded for their work in third world development and helping the poor of developed countries, but governments are slammed for "lining the pockets of warlords" when they do the exact same thing? Nobody got that that was where I was going in the Buffet thread....

Warren Buffet and Bill Gates aren't lauded by me. If we really want to make a difference in improverished nations, what we need to do is forgive their debt and then leave them alone. Don't send foreign aid, don't send missonaries. Just leave them alone. They need to go through their own process of industrialization, just like every developed nation in world has. This concept of leap frogging is very much the problem. All it does is create unsustainable development and a sense of entitlement that is not warranted. I suppose this sounds cold, but give a man a fish everyday and you make him weak and dependant upon you.

[Pastiche]

Originally Posted by Ark2

Warren Buffet and Bill Gates aren't lauded by me. If we really want to make a difference in improverished nations, what we need to do is forgive their debt and then leave them alone. Don't send foreign aid, don't send missonaries. Just leave them alone. They need to go through their own process of industrialization, just like every developed nation in world has. This concept of leap frogging is very much the problem. All it does is create unsustainable development and a sense of entitlement that is not warranted. I suppose this sounds cold, but give a man a fish everyday and you make him weak and dependant upon you.

There's no doubt that straight up dollops of aid are proving to be relatively ineffective. Fortunately, most of the donor community is moving away from that model. To say that money for education, health and infrastructure wont help is just shockingly delusional.

The whole, "aid is stupid because it goes to corrupt dictators" is an assinine, facile, vapid and self-serving argument that exists in the bubble of right wing one liners and other arrogant self-centred catchechisms. You have proven that you have consumed very little of the research, on-the-ground realities or basic understanding of how the modern aid system is working.

To then say that industrialization is the cure is just funny because leave it alone and let the market sort it out systems have lead to the MOST money funnelling to corrupt and brutal dictatorships. I'm talking about the Chinese model of aid in the form hands off economic development funding to places like Sudan, Eritrea, Mali, Burma, etc.

The bottom line is that yes, large transfers of funds to a government do not work and are increasing dependence HOWEVER, most governments of the impoverished do not have the capacity or the institutions to deal with the needs of people and depend on the donor community. I talk specifically about Bangladesh where large donors have vastly improved rural education systems in the most impoverished areas of that country and by proxy the Earth.

To address the systemic hurdles most donors are outsourcing funds to business minded NGOs, local companies and other reactive, adaptable and community minded agencies that are proving to make some success if you go by how development indicators have slowly improved over the past 10 years.

But go along on your little ill-informed spiel from you cozy little office that has completely removed from the reality and destitution on the ground.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I already mentioned that - your view that (attempted-) murder is a justifiable response to a broken window.

I'll be honest....missed your post.

BUT

MY view that murder is a justifiable response to a broken window.....where?

Or is this a straw-man argument?

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Ark2

I am saying that there is no economic system that will allow for poverty to become history.

When the driving force of our lives is the bettering of ourselves and the rest of humanity instead of the aquisition of things, then there will be no such thing as poverty.

Sorry to go Star Trek on you.

Flame away.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Pastiche

There's no doubt that straight up dollops of aid are proving to be relatively ineffective.

Glad we agree on this point.

Fortunately, most of the donor community is moving away from that model. To say that money for education, health and infrastructure wont help is just shockingly delusional.

Why is it delusional? Perhaps ill informed. When I first began reading your post, I was hoping that if my beliefs are in fact incorrect, you would offer something to invalidate them. Instead I see that you've opted to tell me that I am wrong because you say so and hurl insults.

The whole, "aid is stupid because it goes to corrupt dictators" is an assinine, facile, vapid and self-serving argument that exists in the bubble of right wing one liners and other arrogant self-centred catchechisms. You have proven that you have consumed very little of the research, on-the-ground realities or basic understanding of how the modern aid system is working.

Is this really necessary? I'm all for calling one's position assinine, but at least show me why. Give me an argument at least. If I struck an emotional cord, then I do apologize, but this sort of posting gets us no where. If I am wrong, then show me where and I will be happy to consider what you are saying. Who knows, you might even make a convert out of me...

To then say that industrialization is the cure is just funny because leave it alone and let the market sort it out systems have lead to the MOST money funnelling to corrupt and brutal dictatorships. I'm talking about the Chinese model of aid in the form hands off economic development funding to places like Sudan, Eritrea, Mali, Burma, etc.

Look at every single developed nation in the world. They all got to where they are now through the explotation of people. This idea that we can come into an undeveloped foreign nation, attempt to give them all the rights and freedoms that we have and then expect that things will get better does not work. Rights and freedoms have to be earned little by little. I look at the French Revolution, in where people sacrificed their lives so they could literally get an inch closer to freedom. I look at my grandparents who were forced to drop out of school at the age of 5 so that they could work and provide money for their families.

Teaching kids who live in grass huts how to read is great but that is us trying to impart the American dream on them long before they are ready for it. Closing down factories that rely on child labour is nice, but what happens to those children when they are no longer employed? It would be nice to think that they go to school and get a good education and become engineers one day, but often they are forced to turn to even worse means to make a living, such a child prostitution.

The bottom line is that yes, large transfers of funds to a government do not work and are increasing dependence HOWEVER, most governments of the impoverished do not have the capacity or the institutions to deal with the needs of people and depend on the donor community. I talk specifically about Bangladesh where large donors have vastly improved rural education systems in the most impoverished areas of that country and by proxy the Earth.

This sense of dependance and entitlement is the problem in my mind. Creating a system where the only way that people can move forward is by the charity of others is not moving forward at all.

But go along on your little ill-informed spiel from you cozy little office that has completely removed from the reality and destitution on the ground.

I have no problem conceding that there is a great deal about all this that I do not know. This is a discussion that I would be very interested in continuing. I'll be honest though, I'm not really interested in someone that knows nothing about me proposing to know where I come from while I trade insults with him.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Pastiche

This is BS:

The Ontario government secretly passed legislation giving police sweeping new powers for the duration of the G8 and G20 summits.Police are now able to jail anyone who refuses to furnish identification and submit to a search while within five metres of a designated security zone in downtown Toronto.
Critics reacted furiously to the new rules, which remained unpublicized until Thursday when a 32 year-old m

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Se...#ixzz0s6jz9f4F

Bwahaha, you're right... it was BS!

The temporary regulation, which was passed in secret June 2, did decree that all streets and sidewalks inside the fence were a public work until 11:59 p.m. Monday. Under the Ontario Public Works Protection Act, that allowed police to search people trying to enter that area.

But there was no power to search people coming within five metres of the fence, said ministry spokeswoman Laura Blondeau.

“The area designated by the regulation as a public work does not extend outside the boundary of the fence,” Ms. Blondeau said.

Asked Tuesday if there actually was a five-metre rule given the ministry’s clarification, Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair smiled and said, “No, but I was trying to keep the criminals out.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...64/?cmpid=rss1