Report: Israel storms Gaza-bound aid ships

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Azure

Firing what?

Link?

Thats what the protesters are claiming.

[Azure]

Gaah, fix your quotes people.

I can't figure out who is saying what.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Thats what the protesters are claiming.

Except they could have been firing the paintball guns.

[peter12]

[QUOTE=CaptainCrunch;2527709]

Originally Posted by peter12

Its great to say that, and you and myself don't disagree that much on it Peter, however you have to balance the higher standard with the security interests of Israel.

I don't think anyone can disagree that Israel in terms of attempting to neogitate with Palestine has come further across the table then the other side, yet it seems that everytime they do, the other side abrogates agreements or basically opens fire.

Both sides are in the muck, there's no question, how the heck can you take the high road when your enemies actions force you to take the lower road?

Did no one read my twice posted Thucydides quote? My main concern is Israel's self-alienation from key European and Asian allies, such as Turkey.

In reality, I support some of the restrictions, such as checkpoints and The Wall.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Azure

Except they could have been firing the paintball guns.

They were also claiming smoke grenades and what I assume were flashbangs.

But if that were the case, that crowd wouldn't have been attacking anyone.

[HOZ]

[QUOTE=peter12;2527753]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Did no one read my twice posted Thucydides quote? My main concern is Israel's self-alienation from key European and Asian allies, such as Turkey.

In reality, I support some of the restrictions, such as checkpoints and The Wall.

Sorry, but Turkey is an ally by facade only now. That includes NATO. Their cover for Iran nukes should have been enough to tell everyone that.

[LChoy]

[QUOTE=CaptainCrunch;2527625]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I'm not sure what you mean by measured response here, and thats my problem with it, the whole thing stinks of the Kobyashi Maru to me, no matter what the response Israel was going to get hammered.

But thats the way of the world.

Nobody is asking the right questions.

Why was turkey allowing its flag to be used in this case?

Why is nobody questioning why 5 boats submitted by the 6th boat first tried to evade, then attacked the IDF forces?

Why are we not questioning that this effort seems to have been funded by a radical hate group for want of a better term. If the press found this out this quickly, then the Mossad knew about it earlier which explains their requirement to search this boat?

Why didn't this floatilla offer to deliver the aid through the standard Egyptian or Israeli ports, its seems to me that aid is going through?

Why were Irish and other nationallities willing to stay on a boat that at the start of the cruise had crew members chanting "Death to Israel"

There was no fricken way that a boat load with attachments to the IHH was getting through that blockade without being search.

Israel can't win, we talk about the evil of Israel, but with the distinction of some Western developed power, that whole region doesn't accept or recoginize that nations right to exist. They have neighbours that shoot rockets and send in suicide bombers, yet the real outcry comes when Israel responds to that.

And personally, in a lot of ways, I do blame the Palestinian people for putting Hamas in power, and at the end of the day thats going to be the mess that they have to clean up, but its going to be impossible.

I blame these activists on the boat for putting themselves in a stupid situation for a PR trick.

I believe that Turkey for whatever reason has poked their nose into this situation and stirring it up, probably to placate their Muslim majority.

And I blame Israel as well, but I understand why they have a bunker mentallity.

Just to play devil's advocate, who else would they vote for? For the millions that live in the refugee camps, Hamas played the hearts and minds strategy well and offer support. More importantly, Hamas gives the people an enemy to blame for the state that they are in. Being an armed organization, I would also imagine any viable opposition would be easily intimidated, or worse, labelled as being in league with the West/Israel

It's a very vicious cycle. The people on the strip live in a destitute environment. Food, water, electricity is provided by the good graces of the Israelis. However, Hamas stirs the pot, violence erupts. Israel clamps down, cuts off resources and starts a blockade. The environment gets worse and more people become radicalized/desperate and attack. Israel feels that it's pointless to continue to feed, power, provide water to a population that will just turn around and bomb them so they limit aid even more. The international community meanwhile frowns upon the situation but paralyzed by politics. A suicide bomber kills himself, and the army comes in to take out the bomber's house. That leads to further reprisals. An airstrike takes out a bomber maker's base, but it leads to collateral damage. It's no wonder that whoever can break this cycle of violence, breaks through the propaganda and victimization, and establish peace in the region will win the nobel peace prize.

There are truly a large innocent population on both sides that are suffering, but it's the politics, ideology, and history that is getting in the way

Perhaps President Taylor had a point to pursue that peace deal at all costs despite the fact the Russians killed Hassan

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Lchoy

Just to play devil's advocate, who else would they vote for? For the millions that live in the refugee camps, Hamas played the hearts and minds strategy well and offer support. More importantly, Hamas gives the people an enemy to blame for the state that they are in. Being an armed organization, I would also imagine any viable opposition would be easily intimidated, or worse, labelled as being in league with the West/Israel

Yeah, I probably wouldn't vote for the guy who advocates death to the enemy, lauches rockets from schools and sends in sucide bombers to murder their citizens. But I'm not them. However again, they did vote for what is essentially a death cult, and they have to live with the choices that their government makes.

Originally Posted by Lchoy

It's a very vicious cycle. The people on the strip live in a destitute environment. Food, water, electricity is provided by the good graces of the Israelis. However, Hamas stirs the pot, violence erupts. Israel clamps down, cuts off resources and starts a blockade. The environment gets worse and more people become radicalized/desperate and attack. Israel feels that it's pointless to continue to feed, power, provide water to a population that will just turn around and bomb them so they limit aid even more. The international community meanwhile frowns upon the situation but paralyzed by politics. A suicide bomber kills himself, and the army comes in to take out the bomber's house. That leads to further reprisals. An airstrike takes out a bomber maker's base, but it leads to collateral damage. It's no wonder that whoever can break this cycle of violence, breaks through the propaganda and victimization, and establish peace in the region will win the nobel peace prize.

There will never ever be peace in that region, it just won't happen unless someone rises up and overthrows groups like Hamas, or Hezhollah in the neighbouring countries. Even when Israel left infrastructure that could have helped the Palestines, and I give you the example of the greenhouses that Hamas then destroyed because it would have helped the very people that they served. They made a bad choice in electing the Hamas party, and even if they someday vote them out, you don't think that Hammas will just give up power, we saw what happened that lead to the two split camps. I think that the idea of giving the Palestines their own autonomous nation has its benefits, but I certainly don't think that it will mean peace to Israel, because hate is in a sense power.

Originally Posted by Lchoy

There are truly a large innocent population on both sides that are suffering, but it's the politics, ideology, and history that is getting in the way

Sure, but unless one side or another can pull a Martin Luther King Jr clone out of their butt, it will always be that way, in fact, I figure its going to get much much worse, especially with Iran continually stirring things up

Originally Posted by Lchoy

Perhaps President Taylor had a point to pursue that peace deal at all costs despite the fact the Russians killed Hassan

Now I'm really confused.

[LChoy]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Yeah, I probably wouldn't vote for the guy who advocates death to the enemy, lauches rockets from schools and sends in sucide bombers to murder their citizens. But I'm not them. However again, they did vote for what is essentially a death cult, and they have to live with the choices that their government makes.

That's sort of my point. They had one choice to vote for essentially, Hamas. People abstain, Hamas still wins


There will never ever be peace in that region, it just won't happen unless someone rises up and overthrows groups like Hamas, or Hezhollah in the neighbouring countries. Even when Israel left infrastructure that could have helped the Palestines, and I give you the example of the greenhouses that Hamas then destroyed because it would have helped the very people that they served. They made a bad choice in electing the Hamas party, and even if they someday vote them out, you don't think that Hammas will just give up power, we saw what happened that lead to the two split camps. I think that the idea of giving the Palestines their own autonomous nation has its benefits, but I certainly don't think that it will mean peace to Israel, because hate is in a sense power.

I agree. Hamas also destroyed the water filtration pumps. That's one of the hardest thing about this issue, how to separate the people from Hamas.

Sure, but unless one side or another can pull a Martin Luther King Jr clone out of their butt, it will always be that way, in fact, I figure its going to get much much worse, especially with Iran continually stirring things up

The pessiminist in me thinks this will eventally erupt to one big war


Now I'm really confused.
24 reference, the price of peace

Bolded text above

[Azure]

Well at least spoiler it.

!!!!!!!!

[pepper24]

Another black eye to Israel. The vicious circle continues.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

From Haaretz:

'We fired because we were attacked', says Israeli captain in Gaza flotilla op
Captain wounded in mission says mob of activists pounced on the troops, approaching them with knives and batons.

By Fadi Eyadat

The Israel Navy commandos who on Monday raided a flotilla bound for the Gaza Strip with humanitarian aid had no choice but to defend themselves against the violent activists, a captain of the elite marines unit who carried out the operation said Tuesday.

"We knew there would be resistance, but not at such an enormous scale," said Captain R., who led one of the teams and was wounded in the mission. "Every [activist] that approached us wanted to kill us."

Captain R. was the second commando to be dropped from a military helicopter onto the Turkish-flagged ship. During the mission, a large mob of the activists hurled him from the upper to lower deck of the ship.

From the Rambam Hospital in Haifa, Captain R. said that every commando who entered the ship was met by a number of activists who charged at the soldiers and attacked them. At least 75 percent of the activists took part in what the soldiers later described as a "lynch."

"I was the second to be lowered in by rope," said Captain R. "My comrade who had already been dropped in was surrounded by a bunch of people. It started off as a one-on-one fight, but then more and more people started jumping us. I had to fight against quite a few terrorists who were armed with knives and batons."

The captain said that he was first forced to his gun and shoot once when one of the activists came toward him with a knife.

"At that point, another twenty people starting coming at me from every direction," said Captain R. "They jumped at me and hurled me to the deck below the bridge. Then I felt a stabbing in my stomach – it was a knife. I pulled it our and somehow managed to get to the lower level. There, was another mob of people."

The unit had seized control of the ship by that point, save for the lower-most level. "Another soldier and I managed to get out of there and jump into the water."

The commandos had been well-prepared for the mission, said the captain, and had taken into account that the activists might respond with violence. "We thought it would be passive resistance, maybe verbal, but not at such strength," he said.

Despite the tragic results, the captain said he felt his soldiers had operated in a justified fashion. "We worked in an outstanding way, with the values that were instilled in us," he said. "We only turned our weapons against those who put us in danger."


From the Economist:

ATTENTION is again focused on Gaza after Israeli troops stormed ships that were carrying aid to the strip on May 31st, killing at least nine people. Since 2006 Israel has limited the import of various goods to the Hamas-controlled territory to a “humanitarian minimum”, though there is no official list for traders to observe. Instead, Israel makes decisions on a case-by-case basis, which has resulted in an odd assortment of prohibited items, as detailed by Gisha, an Israeli human-rights organisation. Newspapers, tea, A4 paper and chocolate are among the items that have at one point been barred. But though certain goods cannot be brought in by boat or through Israel, they do still come—often faster and cheaper, too—through the tunnels. The main impact of the blockade is on people, who have been barred from leaving, and on exports.

[GGG]

I think after much thought I am on Israel's side and rarely do I end up on Israels side on these issues.

And the reason is that I hate stupid protesters who complain when things go wrong. These protesters knew what was going to happen when they ran the blockade. They new that their ship would be boarded. They took the ship anyways. Then when they were boarded as expected instead of lying on the ground with their hands on their heads they fought back. The protesters wanted to create a scene and they got one. I don't care whether Israel was acting legally or not I don't think in matters. The protesters were trying to get a reaction and they got one.

When the G8/G20 meetings happen in Toronto and if the Police are attacked by protesters and a protesters gets killed I won't be blaming the Police.

[flylock shox]

AP article - Josef Federman

JERUSALEM – Israel and Egypt signaled a temporary easing of the Gaza Strip blockade following harsh international condemnation of the deadly Israeli raid on an aid flotilla en route to the sealed-off Palestinian territory.

Egypt said it was freely opening its border with Gaza for the first time in more than a year to allow in humanitarian aid, setting off a mad rush to the crossing by thousands of residents, while an Israeli official said there is an "ongoing dialogue" with the international community on how to expand the amount of goods entering the area.

...

There were signs, however, that the long-term strategic partnership between Israel and Turkey — the Jewish state's most important Muslim ally — would endure.

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak spoke to his Turkish counterpart Tuesday, and they agreed the raid wouldn't affect weapons deals, defense officials said. Among them is the planned delivery to Turkey of $183 million in Israeli drones this summer.

...

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton supported a Security Council statement that condemned the "acts" that cost the lives of the pro-Palestinian activists off the Gaza coast. But U.S. officials did not say whether they blamed Israel or the activists for the bloodshed.

In remarks to reporters at the State Department, Clinton did not call for an end to the blockade, but she pressed Israel to allow greater access for humanitarian relief supplies, "including reconstruction and building supplies."

In a jab at Israel, Clinton said the situation in Gaza, which is controlled by Hamas and under an Israeli blockade, is "unsustainable and unacceptable."

The flotilla was meant to draw attention to the Israeli and Egyptian blockade of Gaza, imposed three years ago after Hamas militants violently seized power. Israel says the blockade is needed to prevent Hamas, which has fired thousands of rockets into the Jewish state, from building up its arsenal. Critics note the closure has failed to hurt Hamas, while damaging Gaza's already weak economy.

...

Greta Berlin said the Free Gaza Movement, which organized the flotilla, would not be deterred and that another cargo vessel was off the coast of Italy en route to Gaza. A second boat carrying about three dozen passengers is expected to join it, with both arriving in the region late this week or early next week, she said.

"This initiative is not going to stop," she said from the group's base in Cyprus.

Despite the rising tension, Netanyahu's spokesman, Mark Regev, indicated Israel would consider ways to ease the blockade to allow more goods into Gaza — a policy that has been quietly under way in recent months.

...

Three Israeli helicopters dropped 45 commandos on the largest ship, the Turkish-flagged Mavi Marmara, to face more than 500 activists on board. Israel said Tuesday about 50 of them were deployed for battle, armed with knives and clubs, some wearing gas masks. In all, about 700 Israeli troops took part in the takeover of the six ships, sailing in more than 20 Israeli vessels. The 700 included surveillance and support troops alongside those who boarded the ships.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think after much thought I am on Israel's side and rarely do I end up on Israels side on these issues.

And the reason is that I hate stupid protesters who complain when things go wrong. These protesters knew what was going to happen when they ran the blockade. They new that their ship would be boarded. They took the ship anyways. Then when they were boarded as expected instead of lying on the ground with their hands on their heads they fought back. The protesters wanted to create a scene and they got one. I don't care whether Israel was acting legally or not I don't think in matters. The protesters were trying to get a reaction and they got one.

When the G8/G20 meetings happen in Toronto and if the Police are attacked by protesters and a protesters gets killed I won't be blaming the Police.

Protestors should be allowed to protest without being killed. I think that Israel has a big hole to dig themselves out of. The Israeli's used excessive force. We're talking about protestors with at most light weapons like bats from various countries including Canada, Sweden, Germany etc. (not just the Middle East). You think that a US funded army could handle the situation and get control in a better manner. We'll see what the facts are hopefully with an unbiased, fair investigation but at first glance it doesn't look good on Israel.

Regarding the G8/G20, Canada is a democracy that allows peaceful protest. If it turns ugly, the RCMP will do what's necessary without excess force such as riot police, tear gas etc. Not open fire on civialians. Canada is different then Israel, China, Iran, Thailand etc. It's a legit democracy.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Protestors should be allowed to protest without being killed. I think that Israel has a big hole to dig themselves out of. The Israeli's used excessive force. We're talking about protestors with at most light weapons like bats from various countries including Canada, Sweden, Germany etc. (not just the Middle East). You think that a US funded army could handle the situation and get control in a better manner. We'll see what the facts are hopefully with an unbiased, fair investigation but at first glance it doesn't look good on Israel.

Regarding the G8/G20, Canada is a democracy that allows peaceful protest. If it turns ugly, the RCMP will do what's necessary without excess force such as riot police, tear gas etc. Not open fire on civialians. Canada is different then Israel, China, Iran, Thailand etc. It's a legit democracy.

If police in Canada saw another police officer on the ground being stabbed and beaten with crow bars while dozens more were bearing down on them, they would not hesitate to shoot.

The second you use that kind of force you cease to be either a civilian or a "protestor" and become a combatant.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Protestors should be allowed to protest without being killed. I think that Israel has a big hole to dig themselves out of. The Israeli's used excessive force. We're talking about protestors with at most light weapons like bats from various countries including Canada, Sweden, Germany etc. (not just the Middle East). You think that a US funded army could handle the situation and get control in a better manner. We'll see what the facts are hopefully with an unbiased, fair investigation but at first glance it doesn't look good on Israel.

Regarding the G8/G20, Canada is a democracy that allows peaceful protest. If it turns ugly, the RCMP will do what's necessary without excess force such as riot police, tear gas etc. Not open fire on civialians. Canada is different then Israel, China, Iran, Thailand etc. It's a legit democracy.

Things obvious from this posts about the poster.
- Has no idea what a legit democracy is....CHINA?
- Has no idea that the Thai - army just finished off a long standoff by using tanks and live ammo.
- Considers dropping onto a moving ship deck to face "protesters" similar to fully geared riot police standing at the end of a street blocking passage.
- He never saw the videos of those peaceful protesters trying ambushing the Israeli soldier and trying to club them to death as they came down one by one.

Dude,

If those JOOS get an unbaised judge as yourself I think they may opt for the UN to investigate.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Protestors should be allowed to protest without being killed. I think that Israel has a big hole to dig themselves out of. The Israeli's used excessive force. We're talking about protestors with at most light weapons like bats from various countries including Canada, Sweden, Germany etc. (not just the Middle East). You think that a US funded army could handle the situation and get control in a better manner. We'll see what the facts are hopefully with an unbiased, fair investigation but at first glance it doesn't look good on Israel.

Regarding the G8/G20, Canada is a democracy that allows peaceful protest. If it turns ugly, the RCMP will do what's necessary without excess force such as riot police, tear gas etc. Not open fire on civialians. Canada is different then Israel, China, Iran, Thailand etc. It's a legit democracy.

When someone points a gun at you and you attack them rather then stand down then you have made your bed. The stupidity of these protesters amazes me. They really missed the non-violent part of classic civil disobedience.

I don't think that it is that unlikely that protesters will be severly injured in clashes with police. I expect our police to act professionally using tear gas, pepper spray and tazers first but if a protestor stole a gun or had a police officer down and was clubbing him I would not blame the police for defending themselves.

[HOZ]

[peter12]

Great discussion in this thread. It's helped me think through a lot of this issue. Great work to everyone here, it was really high quality stuff.