The news coming out now is that the Israeli troops started firing into the boats before they got onto the decks, from the helicoptors, while the troops were coming down the ropes, it would appear the protestors thought they were about to be executed hence their reaction.
Complete fubar by Israel, stopped a few tons of food getting into Gaza at the cost of virtually all world sympathy.
Link?
I have literally heard or read nothing that would indicate you are telling the truth.
The news coming out now is that the Israeli troops started firing into the boats before they got onto the decks, from the helicoptors, while the troops were coming down the ropes, it would appear the protestors thought they were about to be executed hence their reaction, as they knew they were always going to be stopped and expected to be arrested the story makes sense.
Those were claims from the passengers that also assualted the troops, until I see that independantly verified I have troubles with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by afc wimbledon
However it shakes out a complete fubar by Israel, stopped a few tons of food getting into Gaza at the cost of virtually all world sympathy.
No surprise there, its easier to condemn Israel then it is to support them.
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The fatalities all occurred aboard the Mavi Marmara, a Turkish passenger vessel that was carrying about 600 activists under the auspices of Insani Yardim Vakfi, an organization also known as I.H.H. Israeli officials have characterized it as a dangerous Islamic organization with terrorist links. Yet the organization, founded in 1992 to collect aid for the Bosnians, is now active in 120 countries and has been present at recent disaster areas like Haiti and New Orleans. “Our volunteers were not trained military personnel,” said Yavuz Dede, deputy director of the organization. “They were civilians trying to get aid to Gaza. There were artists, intellectuals and journalists among them. Such an offensive cannot be explained by any terms.”
Oh, the innocence!!! I also question the intellect of the "intellectuals."
My thoughts: firstly I tend to be pro-Palestine and I think that the zionist movement and settlement of Palestine is absolutely reprehensible and I'll never support Israel as long as that continues (I also do not support Hamas and consider them a terrorist organization). But that has little to do with this incident: obviously this flotilla was more about PR than humanitarian relief, and I don't even have a problem with that; it's a legitimate form of protest.
However, you lose your protester cred whenever the situation calls for passive resistance and you can't hold to such a path. That the protestors resorted to violence even as a response to actions by the Israeli army makes them look like the amateurs they are. No, it's not easy to simply stand still as you're being rushed by armed commandos, but if you're going to put yourself in that situation, you need to be prepared for that possibility. And it's far more likely that the protesters were the ones who escalated the situation to violence. Everything I've seen on the tapes looks like sheer panic and adds up to a mission that lacked overall leadership and strategy.
Some people here talk about holding Israel to a higher standard. I hold the Palestinian advocacy campaign to a higher standard. Had they stuck to a passive resistance approach, it would be unlikely that there would be any dead, and it also would have been more effective in exposing any excessive force used by the Israelis, if such force was used.
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No surprise there, its easier to condemn Israel then it is to support them.[/QUOTE]
Well when Israel does dumb ass stuff like this what do thet expect? I'm no fan of Hamas but this was plain stupid and unneccersary, you can stop a boat without boarding it.
I have herd it brought up many times in this thread that the blockade was both a Israel and Egypt undertaking. I think the reason that people have been ignoring or forgetting this is because the commandos storming the ship were Israeli. Why didn’t Egypt and Israel collectively try to stop the flotilla? Would this have averted the PR disaster.
Either way, Egypt has withdrawn from the blockade and has opened the Rafah crossing.
Quote:
The statement did not say how long the border would remain open, but some reports said it would be for an unlimited time.
"Immense pressure is mounting on the Egyptian government," said Emad Gad, an analyst at the Al Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies in Cairo. "Many Egyptians blame our government for playing a big part and allowing the siege on Gaza, and what happened will now make the government run out of political justifications on why the siege is still taking place."
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The current furor is a "more dramatic example of the kind of political stress that different Arab countries feel in these situations," said Rami Khouri, director of the Issam Fares Institute for Public Policy and International Affairs in Beirut. "Israel does something outrageous, the Americans back them up, the Europeans go skiing and the rest of the world does nothing, so the Arabs feel rather helpless in the face of continued Israeli aggression and I just don't see anything substantially new in this."
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The Mubarak government has long argued that a pliable border would strengthen Hamas' radicalism and undermine Egyptian security. The country, which relies heavily on tourism, faced a string of terrorist attacks earlier this decade. Critics claim such fears are exaggerated and provide Egypt political cover to cooperate with U.S. and Israeli strategies to weaken Hamas with a blockade.
"An unconditional opening for the crossing won't be an easy thing to do," said Deyaa Rashwan, an Egyptian political analyst. "Western powers and the European Union, in particular, should be asking Egypt to open the crossing so Egypt can avoid any political problems and dilemmas with Israel. Egypt should take advantage of what happened [Monday] to show that Israel's use of force is not only against Arabs and Palestinians anymore, but against civilians and European activists."
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No surprise there, its easier to condemn Israel then it is to support them.[/QUOTE]
Well when Israel does dumb ass stuff like this what do thet expect? I'm no fan of Hamas but this was plain stupid and unneccersary, you can stop a boat without boarding it.
Really
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"They started coming after our ship," she told CNN, "so we took off and they charged us also. Eventually, they overtook our ship
So they actively tried to evade. The other options to stop the ship under a standardized Navy blockade are to ram it, shoot out its engine plant, or sink it?
To me if I was a naval commander as soon as they "Took off", especially after the other 5 boats had halted and allowed boarding, sirens would be going off in my end. I would want to know why that ship is following different rules then the other ones, what are they carrying? Who's on board?
Obviously when the IDF let their intentions be known which is usually a radio pronouncement of stop your engines and prepare to be boarded for inspection, they took off. How do you stop it with any less level of force then boarding with your primary weapons being non lethal paint ball guns?
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So they actively tried to evade. The other options to stop the ship under a standardized Navy blockade are to ram it, shoot out its engine plant, or sink it?
To me if I was a naval commander as soon as they "Took off", especially after the other 5 boats had halted and allowed boarding, sirens would be going off in my end. I would want to know why that ship is following different rules then the other ones, what are they carrying? Who's on board?
Obviously when the IDF let their intentions be known which is usually a radio pronouncement of stop your engines and prepare to be boarded for inspection, they took off. How do you stop it with any less level of force then boarding with your primary weapons being non lethal paint ball guns?
Ask Greenpeace, they will tell you getting pushed by a large ship whilst being blasted by water cannon from above is highly effective, as it now goes this action has caused the egyptians to open the border, so now instead of gettin a few hundred weight of canned goods Hamas is now going to get all the arms it wants.
This is shaping up to be a Homer Simpson like screw up for the IDF.
Ask Greenpeace, they will tell you getting pushed by a large ship whilst being blasted by water cannon from above is highly effective, as it now goes this action has caused the egyptians to open the border, so now instead of gettin a few hundred weight of canned goods Hamas is now going to get all the arms it wants.
This is shaping up to be a Homer Simpson like screw up for the IDF.
The Egyptians will not open up the border for long. They periodically do anyway and the brutally shut it down later.
The egyptians are more terrified of Hamas than Israel is.
Ask Greenpeace, they will tell you getting pushed by a large ship whilst being blasted by water cannon from above is highly effective, as it now goes this action has caused the egyptians to open the border, so now instead of gettin a few hundred weight of canned goods Hamas is now going to get all the arms it wants.
This is shaping up to be a Homer Simpson like screw up for the IDF.
To me this was a PR move by IHH and Hamas to put Israel in the worst light. I'm pretty sure that even if they had pushed the ship and hit it with water canons, they'd still have to board, we'd still get the mob attack and we'd still be talking about this in the same way. Except now you add that those big bullies tried to sink the ship by ramming it.
Egypt won't keep the border open for long, they have their own problems with the Palestinians.
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To me this was a PR move by IHH and Hamas to put Israel in the worst light. I'm pretty sure that even if they had pushed the ship and hit it with water canons, they'd still have to board, we'd still get the mob attack and we'd still be talking about this in the same way. Except now you add that those big bullies tried to sink the ship by ramming it.
Egypt won't keep the border open for long, they have their own problems with the Palestinians.
Of course and it has worked beyond Hamas's wildest dreams, the IDF's response to almost anything has become predictably heavy handed, they have lost any sense of measured response which Hamas has used to further isolate Israel.
Of course and it has worked beyond Hamas's wildest dreams, the IDF's response to almost anything has become predictably heavy handed, they have lost any sense of measured response which Hamas has used to further isolate Israel.
I'm not sure what you mean by measured response here, and thats my problem with it, the whole thing stinks of the Kobyashi Maru to me, no matter what the response Israel was going to get hammered.
But thats the way of the world.
Nobody is asking the right questions.
Why was turkey allowing its flag to be used in this case?
Why is nobody questioning why 5 boats submitted by the 6th boat first tried to evade, then attacked the IDF forces?
Why are we not questioning that this effort seems to have been funded by a radical hate group for want of a better term. If the press found this out this quickly, then the Mossad knew about it earlier which explains their requirement to search this boat?
Why didn't this floatilla offer to deliver the aid through the standard Egyptian or Israeli ports, its seems to me that aid is going through?
Why were Irish and other nationallities willing to stay on a boat that at the start of the cruise had crew members chanting "Death to Israel"
There was no fricken way that a boat load with attachments to the IHH was getting through that blockade without being search.
Israel can't win, we talk about the evil of Israel, but with the distinction of some Western developed power, that whole region doesn't accept or recoginize that nations right to exist. They have neighbours that shoot rockets and send in suicide bombers, yet the real outcry comes when Israel responds to that.
And personally, in a lot of ways, I do blame the Palestinian people for putting Hamas in power, and at the end of the day thats going to be the mess that they have to clean up, but its going to be impossible.
I blame these activists on the boat for putting themselves in a stupid situation for a PR trick.
I believe that Turkey for whatever reason has poked their nose into this situation and stirring it up, probably to placate their Muslim majority.
And I blame Israel as well, but I understand why they have a bunker mentallity.
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I'm not sure what you mean by measured response here, and thats my problem with it, the whole thing stinks of the Kobyashi Maru to me, no matter what the response Israel was going to get hammered.
But thats the way of the world.
Nobody is asking the right questions.
Why was turkey allowing its flag to be used in this case?
Why is nobody questioning why 5 boats submitted by the 6th boat first tried to evade, then attacked the IDF forces?
Why are we not questioning that this effort seems to have been funded by a radical hate group for want of a better term. If the press found this out this quickly, then the Mossad knew about it earlier which explains their requirement to search this boat?
Why didn't this floatilla offer to deliver the aid through the standard Egyptian or Israeli ports, its seems to me that aid is going through?
Why were Irish and other nationallities willing to stay on a boat that at the start of the cruise had crew members chanting "Death to Israel"
There was no fricken way that a boat load with attachments to the IHH was getting through that blockade without being search.
Israel can't win, we talk about the evil of Israel, but with the distinction of some Western developed power, that whole region doesn't accept or recoginize that nations right to exist. They have neighbours that shoot rockets and send in suicide bombers, yet the real outcry comes when Israel responds to that.
And personally, in a lot of ways, I do blame the Palestinian people for putting Hamas in power, and at the end of the day thats going to be the mess that they have to clean up, but its going to be impossible.
I blame these activists on the boat for putting themselves in a stupid situation for a PR trick.
I believe that Turkey for whatever reason has poked their nose into this situation and stirring it up, probably to placate their Muslim majority.
And I blame Israel as well, but I understand why they have a bunker mentallity.
I agree with everything but the above bolded statements. If Israel is going to continue as a vibrant democracy with a culture of self-criticism, they have to be held to a higher standard than the Islamic radicals or Western relativists.
I agree with everything but the above bolded statements. If Israel is going to continue as a vibrant democracy with a culture of self-criticism, they have to be held to a higher standard than the Islamic radicals or Western relativists.
Its great to say that, and you and myself don't disagree that much on it Peter, however you have to balance the higher standard with the security interests of Israel.
I don't think anyone can disagree that Israel in terms of attempting to neogitate with Palestine has come further across the table then the other side, yet it seems that everytime they do, the other side abrogates agreements or basically opens fire.
Both sides are in the muck, there's no question, how the heck can you take the high road when your enemies actions force you to take the lower road?
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Those peaceful "civilians". Not. If you have no idea what the song means I suggest you google Haibar.
I don't know, if I'm some foreign activist sitting on that boat thats suppossed to lead a peaceful floatilla of relief supplies and I hear that song, I'm abandoning ship, because that crew probably wants me dead.
And that woman at the end with the boiler plate desire for Martyrdom, so typical.
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The news coming out now is that the Israeli troops started firing into the boats before they got onto the decks, from the helicoptors, while the troops were coming down the ropes, it would appear the protestors thought they were about to be executed hence their reaction, as they knew they were always going to be stopped and expected to be arrested the story makes sense.
However it shakes out a complete fubar by Israel, stopped a few tons of food getting into Gaza at the cost of virtually all world sympathy.
