Mclean's - Do atheists care less?

[Azure]

Speaking of the religious right, its interesting how so many of those who are so adamantly against gay marriage have absolutely no problem with divorce and remarriage. In fact amongst many 'religious' folks, especially the sort you find on TV, its tough to find someone that hasn't been divorced and remarriage.

The Bible is quite explicit on this subject.

And yet so many 'religious' folks simply neglect it.

Just a classic example of the hypocrisy that has infiltrated mainstream Christianity.

Which is exactly why its so mind-boggling to me why they're SO against gay marriage. They break the laws(according to the Bible)....many times.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Azure

Speaking of the religious right, its interesting how so many of those who are so adamantly against gay marriage have absolutely no problem with divorce and remarriage. In fact amongst many 'religious' folks, especially the sort you find on TV, its tough to find someone that hasn't been divorced and remarriage.

The Bible is quite explicit on this subject.

And yet so many 'religious' folks simply neglect it.

Just a classic example of the hypocrisy that has infiltrated mainstream Christianity.

Which is exactly why its so mind-boggling to me why they're SO against gay marriage. They break the laws(according to the Bible)....many times.

A godless man might aknowledge that it is wrong to cheat on his wife and yet when tempted, give in. Most people would agree that lying is wrong but, everyone has lied. That doesn't make them hyprocrites as much as human.

Why do you signal out Christians as hyprocrites when everyone fails to live up to their own ideals? Christians have a distinct disadvantage over someone like you, as well: Our standard of conduct is set out for us through the holy scriptures. Yours can "evolve" as your life's circumstances change. You also have the advantage of not having your moral standards written down. No one can no how far you fall short.

And for the record divorce is permitted in the case of fornication(adultery) under the new covenant. Under the Mosaic covenant you could divorce your wife for any number of reasons. Also it was God through Moses who instituted divorce. It was to allow the women to remarry if she desired to.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Also it was God through Moses who instituted divorce. It was to allow the women to remarry if she desired to.

Then why wouldn't the church allow King Henry to divorce? he had to murder a couple of wife's and then create his own church to get out of marriage.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Why do you signal out Christians as hyprocrites when everyone fails to live up to their own ideals?

I think you kind of missed the point of his post, it wasn't about singling out Christians because they are Christians, it's about the contrast between acceptance of one thing and rejection of the other. Failing to live up to your own ideals isn't hypocrisy, being hypocritical about it is.

Everyone fails to live up to their own ideals, but not everyone claims to have superior ideals or be the source of all ideals or insist that their superior ideals should be enforced so that it limits the rights and freedoms of others.

So when someone falls short of an ideal, it's normal and everyone gets that. But when someone spends a significant part of their life casting stones at those who fall short (or who have different ideals) is found to actually be living the life they're throwing stones at(link), yes it's hypocritical.

Individuals can be hypocritical, but the point Azure is making I think is that Christianity as an institution is being hypocritical because of their different positions on divorce vs. homosexuality (I always wondered why the church wasn't trying to have divorce laws changed to match scripture).

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Christians have a distinct disadvantage over someone like you, as well

It's the other way around, Christians have an advantage because they have the source of all morality providing them supernatural strength and guidance and wisdom.

Or that's the theory anyway.

In practice I think Christians are just like everyone else, trying hard to do the right thing with the same resources as everyone else. Even pastors: http://www.christianpost.com/article...-up/index.html http://www.intothyword.org/apps/arti...rticleid=36562

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by T@T

Then why wouldn't the church allow King Henry to divorce? he had to murder a couple of wife's and then create his own church to get out of marriage.

The Catholic church believes that they hold the keys to the kingdom and therefore speak for God on earth. They have declared marriage to be a sacrament. In other words marriage imparts grace which covers sin. Also marriage like all sacraments are sacred and are under the absolute control of the church. It wasn't the scriptures that King Henry was wrestling with but, the politics of the church.

If Henry's authority was the scriptures he wouldn't have been able to divorce his wife because she had remained faithful.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Noah fastened his together using dried seaweed and snot.

Nice....Top Secret!!!!great movie

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by photon

I think you kind of missed the point of his post, it wasn't about singling out Christians because they are Christians, it's about the contrast between acceptance of one thing and rejection of the other. Failing to live up to your own ideals isn't hypocrisy, being hypocritical about it is.

Everyone fails to live up to their own ideals, but not everyone claims to have superior ideals or be the source of all ideals or insist that their superior ideals should be enforced so that it limits the rights and freedoms of others.

Everyone thinks they are right. Some are more sure of their position than others but, we all think we are right. We both live in a time where our rights and freedoms are vanishing at a rapid rate and it isn't Christianity that is behind it.

Originally Posted by photon

So when someone falls short of an ideal, it's normal and everyone gets that. But when someone spends a significant part of their life casting stones at those who fall short (or who have different ideals) is found to actually be living the life they're throwing stones at(link), yes it's hypocritical.

Well I suppose one persons "throwing stones" is another's promoting of their personal ideals or in a Christian's case God's ideals. You will have a hard time finding a professing Christian who claims to live up to God's standards without stumbling or falling now or then. Most will aknowlege their weak flesh readily. It seems more hypocritical to me when Christians knowingly misrepresent or change God's standard to conform to their weaknesses.

Originally Posted by photon

Individuals can be hypocritical, but the point Azure is making I think is that Christianity as an institution is being hypocritical because of their different positions on divorce vs. homosexuality (I always wondered why the church wasn't trying to have divorce laws changed to match scripture).

I think Christians are reacting rather than proacting to the sin of homosexuality. We aren't seeing any divorce pride parades in our communities. Our young children aren't being taught that divorce is natural and good in school. Marriage a Christian rite and in some sects a sacrament is being broadened by the State to include homosexual unions which most Christians see as sinful. Divorce isn't promoted as a positive.

For the record a divorced man couldn't become a pastor in our church.

Originally Posted by photon

It's the other way around, Christians have an advantage because they have the source of all morality providing them supernatural strength and guidance and wisdom.

Or that's the theory anyway.

Walking in the Spirit as opposed to walking by the flesh? Putting on the new man and putting off the old man? Sure Christians have an advantage in that we have a choice but, that doesn't mean we always chose well. We have temptations and as you know sin can provide pleasure for a season. We are born already addicted to sin into a society that is full of opportunities.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

We both live in a time where our rights and freedoms are vanishing at a rapid rate and it isn't Christianity that is behind it.

this is such a stupid right wing cliche. human beings in first world countries have never been more free in all of history than they are right now. and it's a bit ironic that the religious right brings up this talking point so often when it is the Catholic church responsible for countless restrictions of human freedom throughout history, the persecution against gays numero uno

good lord, the hypocrisy that emanates from the mouths of the "faithful" is downright maddening at times

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

this is such a stupid right wing cliche. human beings in first world countries have never been more free in all of history than they are right now. and it's a bit ironic that the religious right brings up this talking point so often when it is the Catholic church responsible for countless restrictions of human freedom throughout history, the persecution against gays numero uno

good lord, the hypocrisy that emanates from the mouths of the "faithful" is downright maddening at times

Convenient of you to jump back into history to a time when no nation recognized those God given inalienable rights to life,liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. How about comparing the freedom we enjoy to the freedom our parents enjoyed 50 years ago.

Funny how a conversation on the uncharitable nature of Atheists turns into an attack on Christianity. Bottom line is that humans have to be taught to share. Children naturally don't want to share their stuff. Any belief system that invents its own morality on the fly will gravitate towards their base instincts. It's only natural.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

How about comparing the freedom we enjoy to the freedom our parents enjoyed 50 years ago.

If I were black, I might find this humorous. Instead I just find it sad.

What freedoms have been stripped from us in the last 50 years?

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

If I were black, I might find this humorous. Instead I just find it sad.

What freedoms have been stripped from us in the last 50 years?

the freedom to be racist? (kidding of course)

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Funny how a conversation on the uncharitable nature of Atheists turns into an attack on Christianity. Bottom line is that humans have to be taught to share. Children naturally don't want to share their stuff. Any belief system that invents its own morality on the fly will gravitate towards their base instincts. It's only natural.

Bottom line children have to be taught just about everything. including god and religion.

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by Azure

Speaking of the religious right, its interesting how so many of those who are so adamantly against gay marriage have absolutely no problem with divorce and remarriage. In fact amongst many 'religious' folks, especially the sort you find on TV, its tough to find someone that hasn't been divorced and remarriage.

The Bible is quite explicit on this subject.

And yet so many 'religious' folks simply neglect it.

Just a classic example of the hypocrisy that has infiltrated mainstream Christianity.

Which is exactly why its so mind-boggling to me why they're SO against gay marriage. They break the laws(according to the Bible)....many times.

I was visiting with a couple of friends from a church I went to when I was younger and I found that a decent number in that church were divorced or something was going on (adultery). Fewer people these days want to actually put some work and effort into their marriage, sad unfortunately. But yeah if divorce rates are up in the church you would think they would focus on helping relationships before pissing on people who "shouldn't" be in one. Just a thought.

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I think Christians are reacting rather than proacting to the sin of homosexuality. We aren't seeing any divorce pride parades in our communities. Our young children aren't being taught that divorce is natural and good in school. Marriage a Christian rite and in some sects a sacrament is being broadened by the State to include homosexual unions which most Christians see as sinful. Divorce isn't promoted as a positive.

First of all, take away the rights and abilities of people to divorce and see if they have any protests or parades in your community.

Secondly, everyone can agree that people choose to divorce, while only small groups from our society believe that homosexuals choose to become gay. When some regular occurance such as homosexuality happens in nature (which by the way is found in many other animals besides human), it is called "natural". By not calling it evil or sinful you are not calling it "good", rather you are rightfully not putting judgment on it, much like the schools are and should be doing when discussing homosexuality.

Finally, marriage isn't a Christian rite. People were getting married long before Christianity came to be.

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Funny how a conversation on the uncharitable nature of Atheists turns into an attack on Christianity. Bottom line is that humans have to be taught so share. Children naturally don't want to share their stuff. Any belief system that invents its own morality on the fly will gravitate towards their base instincts. It's only natural.

Is that what you really believe about Atheists? That since they as you say "invent (their) own morality on the fly", they are basically animals whose behavior is determined solely from "their base instincts"? Well if so, thank goodness that we have you Christians who are so morally superior to us to show us the way! (Sorry, but I couldn't find anything green enough to show the amount of sarcasm that I was attempting to show)

The original article in the first post of this thread was an incredibly stupid attempt to portray Atheists as uncharitable, using "evidence" that is as misleading and illogical as I have ever seen. If this is what you consider compelling evidence as to the nature of Atheists, then it is no wonder that you believe in a God.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Everyone thinks they are right. Some are more sure of their position than others but, we all think we are right.

Well of course, no one lives according to something they think is wrong. However there's a difference between "I'm living the way I think is best" and "You should live the way I think is best".

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

We both live in a time where our rights and freedoms are vanishing at a rapid rate and it isn't Christianity that is behind it.

I don't know if I'd call it a rapid rate, but there is pressure and movement that way I'd agree... but there's always people who want to control what other people can do, and those people will use whatever tool they can, be it religion or government or whatever.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Well I suppose one persons "throwing stones" is another's promoting of their personal ideals or in a Christian's case God's ideals.

There's a difference between promoting and imposing. It's ok for a group to say "we don't do this, and you shouldn't", though it's probably a bit hypocritical when they in fact do it. Better would be "we try not to do this, and you should try not to too". But once they say "we aren't allowed to do this and neither are you" it crosses a line.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

You will have a hard time finding a professing Christian who claims to live up to God's standards without stumbling or falling now or then. Most will aknowlege their weak flesh readily.

And most people get that and accept that, most people respect an honest desire to improve.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

It seems more hypocritical to me when Christians knowingly misrepresent or change God's standard to conform to their weaknesses.

It's not necessarily hypocritical. If someone professes sola scriptura then yes it would likely be hypocritical, but not everyone believes that. Some see the Bible a bit differently and the improving social mores are reflected and documented historically in scripture rather than originating them.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I think Christians are reacting rather than proacting to the sin of homosexuality. We aren't seeing any divorce pride parades in our communities. Our young children aren't being taught that divorce is natural and good in school.

You also don't see people who get divorces rights limited, be social outcasts, etc. It seems appropriate for a group fighting for equality to do things to try and get that equality.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Marriage a Christian rite and in some sects a sacrament is being broadened by the State to include homosexual unions which most Christians see as sinful. Divorce isn't promoted as a positive.

As has been pointed out people got married long before there was a Christianity.

If a church doesn't want to perform gay marriages, they aren't forced. Some churches do want to perform them. Churches have been performing same sex marriages for a long long time:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/2rites.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_mar7.htm

And divorce isn't promoted as a positive, but neither is it advocated that laws should be changed so that people cannot get divorced if infidelity is not a factor.

I don't know many Christians that would say that someone should not get a divorce if their partner was abusive to them or the kids (physically, emotionally, sexually). If someone's wife/husband was physically their children, isn't divorcing them the right thing to do?

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

For the record a divorced man couldn't become a pastor in our church.

Could he be a deacon? Be in ministry? Sing in the worship team? Teach night classes? Help collect the offerings? Be an usher? Be a greeter? Attend services?

Now ask those same questions of a homosexual couple in the church. The answers should be exactly the same for the divorced man and the homosexual persons right?

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Walking in the Spirit as opposed to walking by the flesh? Putting on the new man and putting off the old man? Sure Christians have an advantage in that we have a choice but, that doesn't mean we always chose well. We have temptations and as you know sin can provide pleasure for a season. We are born already addicted to sin into a society that is full of opportunities.

But if there in fact was an advantage you would see a difference among Christians vs. the rest of the population, but those stats about pastors (for example) show that they struggle just like everyone else.. so I don't see that there is an advantage.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

A godless man might aknowledge that it is wrong to cheat on his wife and yet when tempted, give in. Most people would agree that lying is wrong but, everyone has lied. That doesn't make them hyprocrites as much as human.

Why do you signal out Christians as hyprocrites when everyone fails to live up to their own ideals? Christians have a distinct disadvantage over someone like you, as well: Our standard of conduct is set out for us through the holy scriptures. Yours can "evolve" as your life's circumstances change. You also have the advantage of not having your moral standards written down. No one can no how far you fall short.

And for the record divorce is permitted in the case of fornication(adultery) under the new covenant. Under the Mosaic covenant you could divorce your wife for any number of reasons. Also it was God through Moses who instituted divorce. It was to allow the women to remarry if she desired to.

The only reason I single them out is because of their stance against gay marriage. On the other hand they have no problem with divorce and remarriage. Remarriage of course being key.

Its hypocritical. And not merely just being human.

If you want to go by Bible standards, people will make mistakes all the time, born again or not. But to willingly live in sin(remarriage)....is a different story.

How is getting remarried after a divorce any different from two gay people getting married?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by photon

Individuals can be hypocritical, but the point Azure is making I think is that Christianity as an institution is being hypocritical because of their different positions on divorce vs. homosexuality (I always wondered why the church wasn't trying to have divorce laws changed to match scripture).

More or less.

I don't really want to blanket Christianity as a whole having that problem as there are many sects within Christianity that allow divorce, but not remarriage.

But it certainly does still stand out.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Finny61

I was visiting with a couple of friends from a church I went to when I was younger and I found that a decent number in that church were divorced or something was going on (adultery). Fewer people these days want to actually put some work and effort into their marriage, sad unfortunately. But yeah if divorce rates are up in the church you would think they would focus on helping relationships before pissing on people who "shouldn't" be in one. Just a thought.

Pretty much exactly my point.

I don't want to judge people, and I prefer to stay out of the divorce and remarriage business as how can I tell someone who gets abused to not get divorced and remarried to someone who will treat her like a human being instead of a slave.

But the fact that so many churches have rampant divorce/remarriage problems, while at the same time condemning 'gay marriage'....is mind-boggling.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by John Doe

First of all, take away the rights and abilities of people to divorce and see if they have any protests or parades in your community.

Secondly, everyone can agree that people choose to divorce, while only small groups from our society believe that homosexuals choose to become gay. When some regular occurance such as homosexuality happens in nature (which by the way is found in many other animals besides human), it is called "natural". By not calling it evil or sinful you are not calling it "good", rather you are rightfully not putting judgment on it, much like the schools are and should be doing when discussing homosexuality.

Allowing gay marriage should have absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality being or a choice(or not).

Which is probably why its so tough for people to stop opposing denying other people their rights.