Mclean's - Do atheists care less?

[peter12]

Oh my goodness, these discussions are so terribly lacking.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by peter12

Oh my goodness, these discussions are so terribly lacking.

Then please contribute some of your own golden juicyness your highness for we have been judged and have been found wanting.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

And increasingly the proportion is much larger in modern western countries and disproportionaly among the young. Church attendance in Paris is in the single digits. No country in Europe aside from Poland has over 50% attendance. It's only 4% in Scandanavian countries. Traditional religion is becoming irrelevant for many, replaced by secularism and social liberalism.

Is it really though? Religious societies have higher birthrates right now. Europe and North America may not be nearly as influential in a few generations or could be demographically quite different in a few generations.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by peter12

Oh my goodness, these discussions are so terribly lacking.

I'm sure some more pontificating would help - if only we had someone who could spew forth his half-educated musings as if they were the very gospel of the wise ancients! Where shall we find such a paragon?

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

Think about infinity for a while T@T, the mystery of God is wrapped in something akin to that concept.

I have no problem with infinity, it's a mathematical concept that has ZERO to do with god!
The only mystery of God is how his name has managed to last this long.

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

I sit back and await the torrent of replies to this. Bring it on fellas!

Sure pal.

Lets play question and answer shall we?

Question: Do you believe in the Holy Bible?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by John Doe

This is off topic, but is something that has puzzled me for years. I am by no means an expert in any of the following beliefs, but it seems to me that if you take away any god from the mix, the moral ideas advocated by Christianity (and probably more so by the new testament than the old testament) fit the basic philosophical ideals of socialism much better than they do capitalism. Sharing the wealth seems to be an underlying theme running through the little of the bible that I am familiar with, while “coveting thy neighbours (insert belonging here)” seems to be the basis for capitalism. Yet, at least in North America, the more fundamentalist Christian you are, the more you detest socialism and embrace capitalism.

I have always wondered if anyone else sees this seeming contradiction or if I am completely out to lunch.

By the way, Smelly Fred is a hoot!

And?

Nobody ever said that the actions of the government or the way a country is run should ever have anything to do with a religious belief. And those that do, either way, are morons. There is a REASON that the separation of church and state is so important.

The Bible teaches all sorts of things, very little that apply to the government. Most in fact apply to the individual person. When Jesus talked about helping others he was talking about individuals. He wasn't talking about governments equally dividing the wealth.

But hey, pick and choose if you want. Like anything else, its very easy to find small sayings in the Bible and take them completely out of context to prove a point that is ridiculous to begin with.

In the end, according to the Bible, Jesus and his teachings all point towards one thing. Salvation. Now, you can debate that topic all you want, but don't pick and choose 'teachings' such as 'share the wealth'....as applying to a 'country' or a 'government' when in fact the ENTIRE message Jesus brought to the people was geared towards the individual person.

Salvation is something that applies to an individual. No government can be 'saved.' And because of that its ridiculous to deflect certain teachings towards the individual, and those that you want towards the government. Especially based on what your political opinion is.

The Bible, or the majority of the 66 books, and a lot of the others ones that were never added was never written to tell the government how it should run the country. To think that the teachings of Jesus, Paul or anyone else are meant for that is ridiculous.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Some Christians point to a quote in the Bible that says; "God helps those who help themselves...", as an excuse to pursue individualism that capitalism entails.

I actually wrote a paper in highschool about how Jesus was the original communist. Needless to say, my religion teacher (Catholic school), thought it was hillarious.

I would have laughed at your paper considering nothing Jesus taught had anything to do with how a government should be run.

Asking people to help themselves, spread the wealth, share or whatever.....has nothing to do with communism, socialism or running the government and everything to do with personally helping those out in need as a fellow human being.

Again, everything Jesus taught eventually pointed in one direction. Salvation. And this is an INDIVIDUAL concept and has absolutely nothing to do with the government, or any kind of political party or way of governing.

If you want to open that can of worms you could go to the ridiculous length of saying that its actually a sin to have a certain political viewpoint.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Is it just me or does anyone else hate seeing all these figureheads in the atheist/theist debates? People always seem to fall back on them as their champions for whatever position they hold. How about using your own ideas and knowledge rather than watch these guys duke it out? I want to hear your thoughts and ideas, not follow links to arguments and debates between other guys. Show some independant thought. The key to swaying people to either side is not to hold onto stubborn beliefs and argue to the death but through contrition and conciliatory understanding of both sides of the argument. These professional arguists should just be thrown into a gladiator ring. Maybe some lions too for sport.

Yeah, me too. Especially if people like Cheese are making 'sides' and talking about the 'other side' winning, or his side winning. Or when people post videos about one guy destroying another guy. Its ridiculous.

These people, religious and atheist alike, go on TV and spread their stupidity and because people have picked 'sides'....it turns into a 'oh, your guy got destroyed'....or, 'as long as my guy wins 99/100 its all good'....instead of actually being about the message.

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by Azure

And?

Nobody ever said that the actions of the government or the way a country is run should ever have anything to do with a religious belief. And those that do, either way, are morons. There is a REASON that the separation of church and state is so important.

The Bible teaches all sorts of things, very little that apply to the government. Most in fact apply to the individual person. When Jesus talked about helping others he was talking about individuals. He wasn't talking about governments equally dividing the wealth.

But hey, pick and choose if you want. Like anything else, its very easy to find small sayings in the Bible and take them completely out of context to prove a point that is ridiculous to begin with.

In the end, according to the Bible, Jesus and his teachings all point towards one thing. Salvation. Now, you can debate that topic all you want, but don't pick and choose 'teachings' such as 'share the wealth'....as applying to a 'country' or a 'government' when in fact the ENTIRE message Jesus brought to the people was geared towards the individual person.

Salvation is something that applies to an individual. No government can be 'saved.' And because of that its ridiculous to deflect certain teachings towards the individual, and those that you want towards the government. Especially based on what your political opinion is.

The Bible, or the majority of the 66 books, and a lot of the others ones that were never added was never written to tell the government how it should run the country. To think that the teachings of Jesus, Paul or anyone else are meant for that is ridiculous.

I never said anything about how the government should run the country. I was simply stating that I thought the philosophical beliefs (remember, I added the caveat that we were taking the "god" part out of it) of Christianity seemed to fit the socialist model of behaviour better than the capitalist model. By taking god out, how does salvation merit any part of the discussion?

But if you really believe that "the actions of the government or the way a country is run should ever have anything to do with a religious belief", then perhaps you talk to the religious right in the U.S..

A democratic government should reflect the views of it's citizens. To say otherwise is absurd.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by John Doe

But if you really believe that "the actions of the government or the way a country is run should ever have anything to do with a religious belief", then perhaps you talk to the religious right in the U.S..

A democratic government should reflect the views of it's citizens. To say otherwise is absurd.

Democracy is just one value... and it's a very flawed system, just the best one we've got. Ever heard of "tyranny of the majority"? When the majorities wants to oppress minorities, they should be able to? The US religious right are a group who would use "majority rules" to deny basic human rights to other groups (e.g. equality to homosexuals). They are exactly why the actions of the government shouldn't be dictated by religious doctrine.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by jammies

I'm sure some more pontificating would help - if only we had someone who could spew forth his half-educated musings as if they were the very gospel of the wise ancients! Where shall we find such a paragon?

It's not the quality, kids. It's the absolute repetitiveness of the content.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Then please contribute some of your own golden juicyness your highness for we have been judged and have been found wanting.

It's funny how everyone gets defensive. I was more addressing the overall nature of the discussion. I don't really want to get involved, it's not good discussion.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by John Doe

I never said anything about how the government should run the country. I was simply stating that I thought the philosophical beliefs (remember, I added the caveat that we were taking the "god" part out of it) of Christianity seemed to fit the socialist model of behaviour better than the capitalist model. By taking god out, how does salvation merit any part of the discussion?

But if you really believe that "the actions of the government or the way a country is run should ever have anything to do with a religious belief", then perhaps you talk to the religious right in the U.S..

A democratic government should reflect the views of it's citizens. To say otherwise is absurd.

The religious right in the US is a classic example of a group of people who fail to understand that there needs to be a separation between church and state.

Regardless, you can't use Biblical examples to justify a form of government simply because the Bible is largely geared towards individuals, and many even groups of people than it is towards governments. Like I said before, governments can't be saved. Individuals can.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by SebC

Democracy is just one value... and it's a very flawed system, just the best one we've got. Ever heard of "tyranny of the majority"? When the majorities wants to oppress minorities, they should be able to? The US religious right are a group who would use "majority rules" to deny basic human rights to other groups (e.g. equality to homosexuals). They are exactly why the actions of the government shouldn't be dictated by religious doctrine.

Yep.

The state should be completely secular. Its the only way to ensure the basic freedom of religion that so many 'religious fundamentalists' preach about all the time.

They just fail to understand that giving them to the freedom to believe whatever they want applies to the other side too, not matter how distasteful the belief is.

Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, freedom of RELIGION....all these are equally important. Along with the others ones I missed too.

And the only way that is possible to the degree that it SHOULD be is in a completely secular state.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Azure

I would have laughed at your paper considering nothing Jesus taught had anything to do with how a government should be run.

Asking people to help themselves, spread the wealth, share or whatever.....has nothing to do with communism, socialism or running the government and everything to do with personally helping those out in need as a fellow human being.

Again, everything Jesus taught eventually pointed in one direction. Salvation. And this is an INDIVIDUAL concept and has absolutely nothing to do with the government, or any kind of political party or way of governing.

If you want to open that can of worms you could go to the ridiculous length of saying that its actually a sin to have a certain political viewpoint.

It wasn't nearly as 1 dimensional of a paper as that. Just like how Charles Darwin cannot be attributed with fascism, you can still point to how aspects of his teachings have inspired extreme nationalism despite not having a personal interest in governments. The teachings of Jesus do mimic the ideals of eary socialists.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by peter12

It's funny how everyone gets defensive. I was more addressing the overall nature of the discussion. I don't really want to get involved, it's not good discussion.

I don't know what you are expecting. Perhaps if you would outline what you want debated.

It's not people being defensive. It's people thinking you are being an [FCC]dork[/FCC] for interjecting with criticisms and then going "yawn, I'm bored" when you aren't contributing yourself.

Originally Posted by peter12

Oh my goodness, these discussions are so terribly lacking.

What is so lacking in your mind? I am asking out of genuine curiosity. You can't just post that and not explain yourself, otherwise I believe the proper response is "cool story bro"

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I don't know what you are expecting. Perhaps if you would outline what you want debated.

It's not people being defensive. It's people thinking you are being an [FCC]dork[/FCC] for interjecting with criticisms and then going "yawn, I'm bored" when you aren't contributing anything.

I believe the proper response is "cool story bro"

I'm not being a dork. I just see elements of a good discussion, like people talking about god and regime and democracy. All of that is interesting. I'm not expert, I love to talk about it, but then the whole thread gets derailed with the same old trope of "religion is dying/dumb and secular people are geniuses."

[jammies]

Originally Posted by peter12

It's the absolute repetitiveness of the content.

So contribute something original. If you can.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by jammies

So contribute something original. If you can.

I've put in a couple of posts. Maybe I should put in a few clarifying what I think because I do think that is really missing from people on the pro-religion side.

I'm not even close to a snob, I think it's funny that I've been accused of that.

[photon]

Yeah but we can't tell how you are by anything other than your posts, and they come across that way.. as disruptive.