Mclean's - Do atheists care less?

[Smelly Fred]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I like this one. Like there is a "Theist vs. Atheist" battle being waged.

The only thing in common is that they both have historically hated Jews, which is really weird.

Historically we also lived in caves and drew on our cave walls. There is a lot of history to cherry pick from. Personally I don't hate Jews and I don't know any people who do.
There is also the case that is often made that Christians are Israel centric and favour the Jews more than other more historically significant parts of the Middle East like Egypt or Assyria.

Read about people like Corrie Ten Boom who went to a concentration camp in WW2 for hiding and helping Jews escape the Nazis. Doesn't fit neatly into a nice little glib soundbite like you just posted though dies it? Stereotyping is a bitch ain't it?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

Here is part of the William Lane Craig - Anthony Flew debate



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maoGItxwTTA

and here are the Intelligence Squared debates:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XpGyHJZ9b0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER83SF3-DoY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PP6e5q6OtA
2 more parts after these if you want to dig them out.

and the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse....
http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/

[Smelly Fred]

Originally Posted by Cheese

and here are the Intelligence Squared debates:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XpGyHJZ9b0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER83SF3-DoY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PP6e5q6OtA
2 more parts after these if you want to dig them out.

and the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse....
http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/

Oh Cheese I am delighted you brought Christopher Hitchens into this debate. Now let me post the William Lane Craig - Christopher Hitchens debate where even atheists agree Hitchens was absolutely eviscerated by Craig.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9NlR...eature=related

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

Historically we also lived in caves and drew on our cave walls. There is a lot of history to cherry pick from. Personally I don't hate Jews and I don't know any people who do.
There is also the case that is often made that Christians are Israel centric and favour the Jews more than other more historically significant parts of the Middle East like Egypt or Assyria.

Read about people like Corrie Ten Boom who went to a concentration camp in WW2 for hiding and helping Jews escape the Nazis. Doesn't fit neatly into a nice little glib soundbite like you just posted though dies it? Stereotyping is a bitch ain't it?

Cherry-picking?

We all are well familiar with the current relationship between Israel and the other folks in their neighbourhood, and there are plenty of people who remember when a devoutly Christian nation tried to kill every last Jew they could get their hands on.

If "cherry-picking" = "pointing out the obvious", then sure.

Saying that the Jews have been persecuted isn't exactly a controversial theory. If you are ashamed to admit that it was done by "theists", that's too bad.

[photon]

Apologists arguments aren't compelling, if they were compelling then they wouldn't still be around rehashing the same flawed and strained arguments.

It's interesting that one would find the conversion of some atheists to theism compelling indicative of something, but would probably discount the conversion of some theists to atheist and not find the same instruction. Confirmation bias at work.

It's also interesting to observe which questions are replied to and which questions are ignored, and the style of posting.

[photon]

There's little value in a debate, someone can have a great skill at debate and still have a position which has no truth value.

There's a reason scholarly pursuits don't take the form of debates.

[Smelly Fred]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Cherry-picking?

We all are well familiar with the current relationship between Israel and the other folks in their neighbourhood, and there are plenty of people who remember when a devoutly Christian nation tried to kill every last Jew they could get their hands on.

I guess you wish to return to the fallacy that Nazi Germany was "a devoutly Christian nation" Underoos but that bird won't fly. I debated this several pages back and put that one to bed. It is an absolutely ridicuous claim that no sane person of good will and moderation would give a moments thought to. If you choose to believe such lies well there is nothing I can do. You have rejected a lot of truth to arrive at this point so at least it is consistent with your worldview.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

I guess you wish to return to the fallacy that Nazi Germany was "a devoutly Christian nation" Underoos but that bird won't fly. I debated this several pages back and put that one to bed. It is an absolutely ridicuous claim that no sane person of good will and moderation would give a moments thought to. If you choose to believe such lies well there is nothing I can do. You have rejected a lot of truth to arrive at this point so at least it is consistent with your worldview.

Sixty million white people in the middle of Europe in the 20th century with a Christian Church on every corner, but they weren't Christian. Sure.

I suppose they were Buddhists?

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

As for atheism being a harmless belief what about Communism? It was/is atheistic to it's roots ...

This is off topic, but is something that has puzzled me for years. I am by no means an expert in any of the following beliefs, but it seems to me that if you take away any god from the mix, the moral ideas advocated by Christianity (and probably more so by the new testament than the old testament) fit the basic philosophical ideals of socialism much better than they do capitalism. Sharing the wealth seems to be an underlying theme running through the little of the bible that I am familiar with, while “coveting thy neighbours (insert belonging here)” seems to be the basis for capitalism. Yet, at least in North America, the more fundamentalist Christian you are, the more you detest socialism and embrace capitalism.

I have always wondered if anyone else sees this seeming contradiction or if I am completely out to lunch.

By the way, Smelly Fred is a hoot!

[photon]

Yup that's always been an amusing quirk and hasn't gone unnoticed I don't think.

[Smelly Fred]

Then why did other "Christian nations" oppose them RougeUnderoos? Were they also complicit in this heinous act? Was this some secret treaty with the Illuminati to get an Austrailian pope? If it was a Christian act to murder innocents then why were they opposed so vehemently? So there was no question of morality in that fight? Was it all about naked power and conspiracies? You are obviously no student of history or else you confine yourself to very biased slanted literature.

This is a ludicrous argument and absolutely fallacious. You should be ashamed of yourself. I don't believe you honestly believe what you are writing. It flies in the face of fact, logic, an understanding of the very basic tenants of what Christianity stands for. It is a sad reflection on your bigoted thinking - a Christophobic worldview probably influenced by reading too many Dan Brown novels.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by John Doe

This is off topic, but is something that has puzzled me for years. I am by no means an expert in any of the following beliefs, but it seems to me that if you take away any god from the mix, the moral ideas advocated by Christianity (and probably more so by the new testament than the old testament) fit the basic philosophical ideals of socialism much better than they do capitalism. Sharing the wealth seems to be an underlying theme running through the little of the bible that I am familiar with, while “coveting thy neighbours (insert belonging here)” seems to be the basis for capitalism. Yet, at least in North America, the more fundamentalist Christian you are, the more you detest socialism and embrace capitalism.

I have always wondered if anyone else sees this seeming contradiction or if I am completely out to lunch.

By the way, Smelly Fred is a hoot!

Some Christians point to a quote in the Bible that says; "God helps those who help themselves...", as an excuse to pursue individualism that capitalism entails.

I actually wrote a paper in highschool about how Jesus was the original communist. Needless to say, my religion teacher (Catholic school), thought it was hillarious.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by John Doe

This is off topic, but is something that has puzzled me for years. I am by no means an expert in any of the following beliefs, but it seems to me that if you take away any god from the mix, the moral ideas advocated by Christianity (and probably more so by the new testament than the old testament) fit the basic philosophical ideals of socialism much better than they do capitalism. Sharing the wealth seems to be an underlying theme running through the little of the bible that I am familiar with, while “coveting thy neighbours (insert belonging here)” seems to be the basis for capitalism. Yet, at least in North America, the more fundamentalist Christian you are, the more you detest socialism and embrace capitalism.

I have always wondered if anyone else sees this seeming contradiction or if I am completely out to lunch.

By the way, Smelly Fred is a hoot!

The reason is likely that North American Christianity is more based on Calvinism and reformed protestant theology than 1st century church Paulism. Also, modern day America seems to be much more focused on things like prosperity gospel as a major draw for gaining new members.

1st century church organization was definetely much more socialist in nature, the communities were much more commune like, especially with encouraging people to sell all their belongings and then sharing the wealth with the church and the poor.

It's also all based on the history of the societies. The 1st century church was much more cult-like with a small following trying to survive in a Roman Empire ruled world. Separating themselves from the imperialist and capitalist empire was a way to differentiate their way of life and a safeguard for survival of the communal group in a hostile environment.

North American churches were almost the communual lifeblood of the early American empire or so it were. Capitalism and rapid expansion and consumption is what built America and so, the religion celebrated that way of life as the fruits of divine ordinance. Prosperity was seen as a gift from god and a justification for things that built prosperity.

Because the Bible is comprised of the ideas of so many different societies and evolving cultures over thousands of years as well as the individual ideas of so many authors as well as the vetting process used in determining the canon thousands of years after these things were written, it is full of different ideas and contradictions. From all of these, people by nature like to pick and choose the theology and way of life that suits them best.

BTW, I don't think that there's anything against coveting thy neighbour's belongings in the Bible...only his so hot it's sinful wife...if you like sloppy seconds

[Hack&Lube]

I can't believe you guys are still talking about Hitler and Nazis being Christian or not...Just drop it for the sake of this thread. Please. It's almost totally irrelevant. Nomatter how you guys try to frame it, you are really going back on forth on:

IF
1. Nazis = Evil
2. Nazis = Christians
THEN
3. Christians = Evil

or other variations thereof

Give me a break! Both tremendous good and tremendous suffering have come from people(s) of many religious backgrounds who may or may not have done things in the name of religion or using it as a justification of their actions. In most cases, religion was often simply a part of the background of a society and not relevant to the actual political actions that took place.

Religion was almost entirely absent as a motivating factor from the major political and economic conflicts (aka war) in the western world after the Peace of Westphalia in 1648.

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Religion was not the cause of the French Revolution. The persecution of the clergy during the Reign of Terror was not due to religion itself but rather it's oppressive role in the ancien regime and massive ownership of wealth & power. Religion had very little to do with Nazi Germany. Religion had very little to do with Communism. The motivating factors for all of these were economic.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

Oh Cheese I am delighted you brought Christopher Hitchens into this debate. Now let me post the William Lane Craig - Christopher Hitchens debate where even atheists agree Hitchens was absolutely eviscerated by Craig.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9NlR...eature=related

I will watch it...seemed to have missed this one. Doesn't bother me that one out of every 100 debates has the other side winning, it keeps the Theists hopes up and keeps them coming out for more.

[Hack&Lube]

Is it just me or does anyone else hate seeing all these figureheads in the atheist/theist debates? People always seem to fall back on them as their champions for whatever position they hold. How about using your own ideas and knowledge rather than watch these guys duke it out? I want to hear your thoughts and ideas, not follow links to arguments and debates between other guys. Show some independant thought. The key to swaying people to either side is not to hold onto stubborn beliefs and argue to the death but through contrition and conciliatory understanding of both sides of the argument. These professional arguists should just be thrown into a gladiator ring. Maybe some lions too for sport.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

CaramonLS
Atheism is estimated to affect 2.5% of the world population. It is a tiny insignificant little speck on the elephants backside and as such carries precious little clout except for blogs and forums where atheists attempt to punch above their collective weight. Theism has absolutely nothing to worry about as far as atheism is concerned.

And about 16% of the world is considered to be "non-religious" - agnostic, atheist, whatever you'd like to categorize them as.

You can't deny that this is a rapidly growing group or a "problem" to theists. We can debate the merits of agnostic vs. atheist, but the numbers are going to steadily increase over the coming decades. Simply put, more people are getting 'turned off' of religion.

[MarchHare]

Some Christians point to a quote in the Bible that says; "God helps those who help themselves...", as an excuse to pursue individualism that capitalism entails.

The best (or worst, depending on your perspective) thing about that is that no such quote exists in the Bible! A quick Google search shows this Christian site debunking that common misconception:

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-help-themselves.html

Question: "God helps those who help themselves - is it in the Bible?"

Answer: "God helps those who help themselves" is probably the most often quoted phrase that is not found in the Bible. This saying is usually attributed to Ben Franklin, quoted in Poor Richard's Almanac in 1757. In actuality, it originated from Algernon Sydney in 1698 in an article titled Discourses Concerning Government. Whatever the original source of this saying, the Bible teaches the opposite. God helps the helpless! Isaiah 25:4 declares, "For You have been a defense for the helpless, a defense for the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shade from the heat..." Romans 5:6 tells us, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Some Christians point to a quote in the Bible that says; "God helps those who help themselves...", as an excuse to pursue individualism that capitalism entails.

For what it's worth, there is no verse that says this at all and the majority of scripture actually is more in line with the opposite, that you should never trust in your own abilities or your own understanding and that God helps the helpless.

It's usually a misquote from a line from Benjamin Franklin or Algernon Sidney or a line from Aesop's Fables about the Greek Pantheon gods helping people who help themselves.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

And about 16% of the world is considered to be "non-religious" - agnostic, atheist, whatever you'd like to categorize them as.

You can't deny that this is a rapidly growing group or a "problem" to theists. We can debate the merits of agnostic vs. atheist, but the numbers are going to steadily increase over the coming decades. Simply put, more people are getting 'turned off' of religion.

And increasingly the proportion is much larger in modern western countries and disproportionaly among the young. Church attendance in Paris is in the single digits. No country in Europe aside from Poland has over 50% attendance. It's only 4% in Scandanavian countries. Traditional religion is becoming irrelevant for many, replaced by secularism and social liberalism.