Calgary Bylaw will give you a Stubbi

[Madman]

Originally Posted by Methanolic

The law might make sense, but I think the price tag is way to Harsh. Flicking a lit butt is a more severe fine than running a red light?

The problem is that people are smart enough to realize the consequences of running a red light no matter what the fine is.

Smokers just don't care and seem to think they can dump their butts anywhere. It's the typical attitude of smokers really - we get it, you're cooler than we are because you are a bad ass smoker.

[Methanolic]

Originally Posted by Madman

The problem is that people are smart enough to realize the consequences of running a red light no matter what the fine is.

Smokers just don't care and seem to think they can dump their butts anywhere. It's the typical attitude of smokers really - we get it, you're cooler than we are because you are a bad ass smoker.

I get your point. I really just think it's too harsh. As far as smokers being cool and so on.. I know people (smokers) who work downtown and they are very miffed about this bylaw because the City has done very little in offering them any place else to safely dispose of the butt.

I guess when they do the census, they'll have to hand out Stubbi's to the appropriate people.

[Ren]

nm

[Hack&Lube]

In Japan, every smoker has a personal ashtray.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Methanolic

I get your point. I really just think it's too harsh. As far as smokers being cool and so on.. I know people (smokers) who work downtown and they are very miffed about this bylaw because the City has done very little in offering them any place else to safely dispose of the butt.

I guess when they do the census, they'll have to hand out Stubbi's to the appropriate people.

Sounds like they're doing precisely that with this 'stubbi' thing.

[ken0042]

To me it doesn't sound unreasonable to make people responsible for their own garbage that is on fire.

[Temporary_User]

I used to work in a restaurant, and one of my opening duties was to stroll the parking lot and pick up all the garbage left around. This included but was not limited to cigarette butts.
People are really inconsiderate with their garbage. We had an ashtray right at the end of our patio which a few people would use, but there would be so many butts all over the place. I think people believe that the butts are so small that it doesn't really matter; that is until the wind blows them all into a pile.

Also you don't really have to carry around one of these Stubbi's wherever you go. Have an almost empty water bottle in your car, throw it out when it gets full. Take on down with you when you are on break at lunch. Again throw it out after.

OT: but who are these people that leave full bags (McD's and such) of garbage in a parking lot? Just open their door and leave it be.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by ken0042

To me it doesn't sound unreasonable to make people responsible for their own garbage that is on fire.

Me neither.

People should also be responsible for their own nearly-running-down- humans habit. What is the fine for that? It should be more than it is for littering but far as I can tell, it isn't. Anyone know what the fine is for going through a crosswalk when the lights are flashing?

[flip]

Originally Posted by Madman

The problem is that people are smart enough to realize the consequences of running a red light no matter what the fine is.

Smokers just don't care and seem to think they can dump their butts anywhere. It's the typical attitude of smokers really - we get it, you're cooler than we are because you are a bad ass smoker.

In fact, when I smoke I'm so cool that I flick my butts at geniuses like you. Sometimes I even just walk up and put it out right on peoples skin. Children are easiest 'cause I can hold them in place until the butt stops burning.

[GGG]

Is a $1000 fine any more of a deterrent then a $300 fine? The problem lies in enforcement. If 999/1000 a person does not get caught they are going to continue the behaviour regardless of the fine. The $1000 fine might act as a deterrent for that individual for a while after they get caught but as a global deterrent it will probably fail.

A good example of expensive punishment doing nothing is drinking and driving. By the time insurance, fines and legal fees are all done you are probably out 10,000 if you get a DUI but is that a deterrent? It doesn't appear to work. My theory is that since people can drive 1000 times without getting caught the risk assessed by the individual for drinking and driving approaches zero. Regardless of the fine if you got caught 10% of the time people would do it less as people would see it as a real risk.

Another good example is Red Light tickets. Intersections with signs for red light camera see a very high reduction in red light violations. Why? Because people believe they will get caught if they go through the intersection. In regular Police based intersections people run red lights at a higher rate.

When the probability of getting caught approaches zero it doesn't take much marginal benefit for people to have a negative behaviour. Also humans are a very poor at assessing risk. Generally underestimating the risk of rare but highly negative outcomes (fines, stock market crashes) and overestimating the probability of winning rare but large outcomes (lotteries)

I think that the goal of the law is to reduce the number of butts thrown. In my opinion this fine is excessive for accomplishing that goal and will negatively affect peoples lives to a large degree for those who get caught and provide no punishment for the vast majority who get away with it. I think a more reasonble fine in the $200 to $300 dollar range combined with increased enforcement of the bylaw would have the desired result without causing people to be unable to afford rent.

[Flames89]

The transformation of Calgary into a police state continues.

[Jimdon]

Fine by me, I don't see how people get away with throwing their crap in the middle of the street anyway, its disgusting really, it's not enough that you stink, you have to leave a trail of butts behind you too?

[WilsonFourTwo]

Meh, I think that Bylaw hit a bulls-eye but was pointing at the wrong target. I think that the fine for littering should be $1000. Cigarettes would fall into that category, along with Tim Horton cups, and all the other random crap people can't bother to take responsibility for.

I loved how clean my neighborhood was.....and then the Tim Hortons opened. Now, you can't walk more than 20ft within finding an empty cup or timbit box. It's gotten to the point where my neighborhood now looks like it's officially sponsored by Tim Hortons. (I should note that I don't blame Tims.....this isn't a corporate problem, and I do see the staff cleaning the parking lot from time to time)

As for the 'bad ass smoker' comment.....I think that's pretty childish and that you're a fool to paint smokers that way. Sure, the 16-year old dropout may think that, but I doubt you'll find many (any?) 30-year old smokers who do it to be cool. I watched my father try to quit for 30 years, and he was a man of significant willpower and a number of great reasons to quit. It's like suggesting an alcoholic thinks he's super cool cause he finishes a 26 of whiskey each day.

[WilsonFourTwo]

Forgot something in my first post.....

Kudos to the city team for handing out the 'personal ashtrays'. I don't think it's the ultimate solution, but its a good step forward.

I'm pretty sure (90%) it was in Edinburgh where I noticed EVERY corner had a wastebasket, and that every wastebasket was 'Trash in the bottom, cigarette butts up top' with separate compartments.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

People should also be responsible for their own nearly-running-down- humans habit. What is the fine for that? It should be more than it is for littering but far as I can tell, it isn't. Anyone know what the fine is for going through a crosswalk when the lights are flashing?

I guess my thinking is that just because there are other issues at hand doesn't mean this cannot be addressed. Never mind the discussion of pedestrian safety is a little more complex. There is driver education as well as pedestrian education.

Originally Posted by Flames89

The transformation of Calgary into a police state continues.

By "transformation" it sounds like there are other examples- I'd like to hear them. Not that I think that adding some beef to the fines makes us any kind of a police state.

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by ken0042

By "transformation" it sounds like there are other examples- I'd like to hear them. Not that I think that adding some beef to the fines makes us any kind of a police state.

I'm assuming OP is referring to cameras all over the place. That's the typical gripe when 'police state' comes up.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Methanolic

If she did it or not, She should fight it regardless, That's way too much money for that kind of "Crime".

I wonder what the costs of having the fire department come out to extinguish a grass fire is? A lot seem to happen along roadways. Spending tax dollars to put out a fire that some idiot started (because they thought that it was smart to throw something on fire out of their window into dry grass) is beyond ridiculous.

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

I wonder what the costs of having the fire department come out to extinguish a grass fire is? A lot seem to happen along roadways. Spending tax dollars to put out a fire that some idiot started (because they thought that it was smart to throw something on fire out of their window into dry grass) is beyond ridiculous.

Welcome to living in Canada. When someone decides it's smart to yap on their cellphone while driving, we all pay the medical bills when they run a red light and cream some pedestrian.

Paying for somebody else's stupidity ain't necessarily fair, but I would argue that it's a FAR cry better than the anarchy that would otherwise occur. The only thing that you (as an individual citizen) can do is to point out bad behavior, and make it clear to the offender that it isn't acceptable.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Methanolic

The law might make sense, but I think the price tag is way to Harsh. Flicking a lit butt is a more severe fine than running a red light?

I don't think it's too much. I think the high fine will do more to discourage people from doing it, so I'm all for it. If you smoke, carry your own ashtray.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Me neither.

People should also be responsible for their own nearly-running-down- humans habit. What is the fine for that? It should be more than it is for littering but far as I can tell, it isn't. Anyone know what the fine is for going through a crosswalk when the lights are flashing?

Failing to yield to a pedestrian in a marked crosswalk is $575 + 4 demerits.