wikileaks.org releases classified US military video depicting killing of civilians

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm pretty sure I've read about this a while ago.

There might even have been a CP thread about it.

I think you're may be thinking of the Aghanistan comments made my McCrhystal about the staggering amount of civilians they have killed there.

There is a theory those comments were made prior to the release of the footage because no one new exactly what the video was of, or when, or where.

I think it points more to this happening all the time.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The problem with fighting this kind of war is that its impossible to seperate enemy insurgents from civillians since there are no uniforms. Once they spotted the weapons at their objectives, once they reported shooting, the men on the grounds fates were sealed.

I think the issue here is that you are okay with innocent people being killed because there is no way to separate them from insurgents. "Their fates were sealed... too bad.. so sad... world smallest violin... whoopdie doo... they were only Iraqis.... what do I care?"

[flip]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Me particularly? Wow.... people really respect my opinion around here.

Uhm... I checked this on Google News and this is only being reported on Huffington and Aljazeera. Nothing on Fox, so maybe it didn't happen.

If it happened during the Bush administration Fox won't show it. If it happened during the Obama era they'll photoshop Obama's head on one of the "terrorists".

Wait, you actually get "news" from Fox? That is kind of like only reading I H8 Crawford and moon's posts to get opinions on the Flames/Hitmen.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Me particularly? Wow.... people really respect my opinion around here.

Uhm... I checked this on Google News and this is only being reported on Huffington and Aljazeera. Nothing on Fox, so maybe it didn't happen.

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE I KNEW YOU WOULD SHOW RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!

/light hearted comment

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I think the issue here is that you are okay with innocent people being killed because there is no way to separate them from insurgents. "Their fates were sealed... too bad.. so sad... world smallest violin... whoopdie doo... they were only Iraqis.... what do I care?"

Seriously?

You're completely out to lunch. CC actually served, so I'd think he knows a hell of a lot better what its like than you do.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by flip

Except there was only one weapon that I could see. The other guys had cameras that they thought were weapons.

As mentioned they identified AK-47's and at least one man carrying an RPG.




Furthermore, you are either mistaken or completely making up the thing about the guys on the ground firing first. They identify the guy with an RPG, they say he was readying to fire (it didn't look like he was at all), then they just arbitrarily say "yeah we had a guy shooting". There is no evidence of any shots fired in the video nor does the guy with the RPG even attempt to fire his weapon.

The US guys identify what they think are weapons and then ask to engage. Nobody even mentions the guys on the ground opening fire first.[/QUOTE]


At 4:21 of the video, "Yeah we had a guy shooting". Camera's don't show all, but there was a report of shooting. Video's don't always specifically show actually shooting, they were looping around the building and the crowd was on the other side.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I think you're may be thinking of the Aghanistan comments made my McCrhystal about the staggering amount of civilians they have killed there.

There is a theory those comments were made prior to the release of the footage because no one new exactly what the video was of, or when, or where.

I think it points more to this happening all the time.

Nope. I recall something else.

Something about Reuters people getting killed.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Azure

You're completely out to lunch. CC actually served, so I'd think he knows a hell of a lot better what its like than you do.

Well, then I guess that might explain the "their fates were sealed" comment. Do we train people to be that callous?

[flip]

Originally Posted by Azure

And there is something wrong with that?

Sure, the outcome is horrible, but usually when they see weapons they open fire.

That is a typo. They say they see shots fired but there are no shots fired in the video that are visible.


I guess if indiscriminately killing people is their thing then go ahead. I guess it is possible that those were insurgents and had they not been killed they would have murdered innocent Iraqis but we don't know that.

Like I said, maybe they were armed Iraqi civilians providing protection for the journalists from real insurgents. We'll probably never know.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I think the issue here is that you are okay with innocent people being killed because there is no way to separate them from insurgents. "Their fates were sealed... too bad.. so sad... world smallest violin... whoopdie doo... they were only Iraqis.... what do I care?"

Where in the f$$k did I ever say that I was okay with innocent people getting killed.

What I stated was a fact. The battlefields in Iraq and Afghanistan are far more confusing then they ever were in the previous generations because the enemy isn't easily identifiable.

However the botton line is that there were armed people, including one instance of a RPG 7 which can be used against air targets. They reported shots fired as they looped around the building. At that point the rules of engagement are in effect.

[puckluck]

This war will never be won. You can not win a war against a person who wants to die. Dying is victory and killing is victory. Imagine playing a team who tries to score on their own net and cheers.

You kill that man, his kids will seek revenge. You kill that kid his dad, uncles, brothers will seek revenge. This is just a pointless war that can never be won.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Then the van shows up to pick up bodies and as soon as they start collecting weapons (Pilot stated) they become pretty suspicious. and the pilots request and receive permission to fire.

As you stated, it was the pilot who said they started to "collect weapons." It's as clear as night and day in the video that the people in the van were there trying to help the photographer. I think that's the most sickening part here. The indiscriminate attack on the van that is trying to help a wounded civilian.

Actually what is worse is the US military denying any wrong doing and trying to cover the situation up.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Well, then I guess that might explain the "their fates were sealed" comment. Do we train people to be that callous?

To me that is the cold hard fact of the matter.

I don't think he was saying he doesn't give a crap about innocent people being killed.

The cold hard fact is if you're around terrorists, or enemy troops as a civilian, media or even as a soldier, chances are if there is air support in the area and you can notify them to not shoot your fate is pretty much sealed.

[photon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

As an addon about the glib comments. That is how soldiers talk. Its harsh to hear it. But these are men trained to do the most terrible thing that you can ever do and thats how they come to terms with it.

That's the big factor in these things that at least for me makes it basically impossible to really judge, at least judge the individuals.

You take people, and in the process of turning them into weapons you have to strip away or at least impair.. something. Their humanity? Their empathy?

And then we put them in situations that further that.

I can't help but wonder if it's fair to expect things like this NOT to happen.

Psych studies have shown even the average person will do evil things in the "right" conditions.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by flip

That is a typo. They say they see shots fired but there are no shots fired in the video that are visible.


I guess if indiscriminately killing people is their thing then go ahead. I guess it is possible that those were insurgents and had they not been killed they would have murdered innocent Iraqis but we don't know that.

Like I said, maybe they were armed Iraqi civilians providing protection for the journalists from real insurgents. We'll probably never know.

We can argue all day whether or not they should have fired, but that still doesn't change the fact that if they saw weapons, or firing.....they had to shoot back.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Well, then I guess that might explain the "their fates were sealed" comment. Do we train people to be that callous?

You have to be callous. War is a terrible awful thing, and thats how you survive it.

You do your best to protect the innocent. In this case, it looks like they followed the standard rules of engagement.

Again with the Van, they reported that the occupant was trying to retrieve bodies and weapons, that makes them possible insurgents.

[Flash Walken]

Or if you are an Iraqi and look mean, you could be shot?

I think that is the lesson here.

The guys are itching to open fire.

[flip]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

As mentioned they identified AK-47's and at least one man carrying an RPG.







At 4:21 of the video, "Yeah we had a guy shooting". Camera's don't show all, but there was a report of shooting. Video's don't always specifically show actually shooting, they were looping around the building and the crowd was on the other side.

Did you miss the part about the AK 47 being reporters with their cameras?


If those guys were shooting why would there be reporters strolling down the street with them? They certainly weren't hostages. You think the Reuters reporters like to just hang out with insurgents while they open fire on US troops?

Why do the reporter's demeanor look so calm if the guy on the ground had supposedly opened fire? Opened fire on who? The US troops? We don't know that. if they opened fire, which I don't think they did, maybe they were firing on real insurgents and they were protecting the Reuters guys.

We simply don't know. And you trusting those dbags in the video is taking a HUGE leap. Those guys were having a blast murdering people, begging to be allowed to open fire on a van trying to save a dying man and laughed it off after they learned they had murdered children.

Not sure if one guy remarking about shooting when there is no evidence to suggest anybody fired is a pretty big stretch.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by puckluck

This war will never be won. You can not win a war against a person who wants to die. Dying is victory and killing is victory. Imagine playing a team who tries to score on their own net and cheers.

You kill that man, his kids will seek revenge. You kill that kid his dad, uncles, brothers will seek revenge. This is just a pointless war that can never be won.

Far as I'm concerned the war has been won. The US, Britain and other countries are in the process of withdrawing troops as they can. The government seems relatively stable and Iraq is pushing hard to develop their oil fields to help them become independent from US help.

Course, that doesn't change all the screwups made to begin with, but as of right now things are looking a lot better than they were 2 years ago.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by ikaris

As you stated, it was the pilot who said they started to "collect weapons." It's as clear as night and day in the video that the people in the van were there trying to help the photographer. I think that's the most sickening part here. The indiscriminate attack on the van that is trying to help a wounded civilian.

Actually what is worse is the US military denying any wrong doing and trying to cover the situation up.

Not to argue this too much further, but the pilot saw what he saw or thought he saw. (remember the Yank who bombed the Canadians' because he swore he saw incoming fire, when it wasn't)


Look this is a bloody awful thing, and you always hope that the investigation was handled in a far manner. To me, until we see transripts or something to that effect from the other side (U.S. Military) its tough to judge what is and isn't justifiable actions in the battlefield.