wikileaks.org releases classified US military video depicting killing of civilians

[ikaris]

http://collateralmurder.org/

"5th April 2010 10:44 EST WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff. Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded."


Initial article when incident happened in 2007:


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...54C0A9619C8B63

"There is no question that coalition forces were clearly engaged in combat operations against a hostile force,'' said Lt. Col. Scott Bleichwehl, a spokesman for the multinational forces in Baghdad.


Often you hear about these cover ups by the US military, but it's pretty damning when you actually have video evidence to back it up.

[FlamesAddiction]

I'm not making excuses for this, but it does happen in every war by every side. There seems to be this idea that North American have some kind of moral high ground when it comes to war crimes.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I'm not making excuses for this, but it does happen in every war by every side. There seems to be this idea that North American have some kind of moral high ground when it comes to war crimes.

It does. And I'll preface this by saying that I didn't watch the video--I have kind of a weak stomach for violence, especially if it involves children.

But I highly doubt that the explanation is that the US soldiers were killing people for the hell of it. It's far more likely that given the high stress of their situation and a somewhat murky situation around them on the ground, that the consequences of a slight misunderstanding or a case of mistaken identity can often be death.

There's no visible difference between a civilian and an enemy to these guys, and the situation around them is often chaotic. I've never been in their shoes, so I'm disinclined to pass judgment.

Which is not to say that I think these things should be covered up, or that it's okay if they happen. Just that I think a) humans make mistakes, b) soldiers are human and c) the consequence of a mistake in a war zone is that people get killed who shouldn't have.

[flip]

That video is f***ing disturbing.

[Flash Walken]

Waiting for the devil's advocate posts.

Indefensible.

Absolutely indefensible.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

It does. And I'll preface this by saying that I didn't watch the video--I have kind of a weak stomach for violence, especially if it involves children.

But I highly doubt that the explanation is that the US soldiers were killing people for the hell of it. It's far more likely that given the high stress of their situation and a somewhat murky situation around them on the ground, that the consequences of a slight misunderstanding or a case of mistaken identity can often be death.

There's no visible difference between a civilian and an enemy to these guys, and the situation around them is often chaotic. I've never been in their shoes, so I'm disinclined to pass judgment.

Which is not to say that I think these things should be covered up, or that it's okay if they happen. Just that I think a) humans make mistakes, b) soldiers are human and c) the consequence of a mistake in a war zone is that people get killed who shouldn't have.

They were clearly having fun killing those people. It did appear one guy had a weapon and they confused the cameras of the other two guys for weapons but they were saying stuff like "let us shoot" and "nice" when they opened up on these guys.

They then opened fire on civilians trying to save one of the guys. None of them had weapons at all. They were just trying to save a guy who was dying in the street. The guys even laugh when they see a tank drive over one of the dead bodies. Seriously, I don't have that much fun playing COD.

I get that their job is high stress and I understand that they could have thought that if they didn't kill those people on the ground that they would shoot their helicopter out of the sky or commit a suicide bombing or something. But that video is disturbing. Those guys sound like they are playing Call of Duty and they don't realize that the people they are murdering have families and children.

[mykalberta]

I would have to see a longer video and a confirmation that the person who was supposedly holding the camera was actually holding a camera.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

I would have to see a longer video and a confirmation that the person who was supposedly holding the camera was actually holding a camera.

http://collateralmurder.org/file/photos/5.jpg.html

"Last photo taken by Namir Noor-Eldeen before he was killed. The photo appears to have been taken during the first seconds of the attack."

But ya, it could have been a gun

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by flip

No those guys deserve to be very cruelly punished for that.

They were clearly having fun killing those people. It did appear one guy had a weapon and they confused the cameras of the other two guys for weapons but they were saying stuff like "let us shoot" and "nice" when they opened up on these guys.

They then opened fire on civilians trying to save one of the guys. None of them had weapons at all. They were just trying to save a guy who was dying in the street. The guys even laugh when they see a tank drive over one of the dead bodies. Seriously, I don't have that much fun playing COD.

I get that their job is high stress and I understand that they could have thought that if they didn't kill those people on the ground that they would shoot their helicopter out of the sky or commit a suicide bombing or something. But that video is disturbing. Those guys sound like they are playing Call of Duty and they don't realize that the people they are murdering have families and children.

Fair enough--as I said, I didn't watch it--and it sounds like it's a good thing I didn't.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

I would have to see a longer video and a confirmation that the person who was supposedly holding the camera was actually holding a camera.

Then I suggest you actually do it.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Fair enough--as I said, I didn't watch it--and it sounds like it's a good thing I didn't.

It's not great footage unless you like seeing a father and his children shot up in a van as they attempt to save a gunned down reuters photographer amidst a scene of scattered, mutilated bodies.

[CaptainCrunch]

There's a couple of things that we're not really talking about here.

They were clearly on an anti-insurgency mission, they had spotted men carrying AK-47's and RPG's. A few minutes into the tape they mention that one member of the party was firing. Rules of engagement at that point are probably pretty clear.

The problem with fighting this kind of war is that its impossible to seperate enemy insurgents from civillians since there are no uniforms. Once they spotted the weapons at their objectives, once they reported shooting, the men on the grounds fates were sealed.

Then the van shows up to pick up bodies and as soon as they start collecting weapons (Pilot stated) they become pretty suspicious. and the pilots request and receive permission to fire.

It is a goddamned awful thing to watch, but I understand the actions behind it.

As an addon about the glib comments. That is how soldiers talk. Its harsh to hear it. But these are men trained to do the most terrible thing that you can ever do and thats how they come to terms with it.

[Azure]

If its true pretty tough to defend something like that.

Sure we can say its war, and people get killed, but that doesn't make it any less wrong.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Fair enough--as I said, I didn't watch it--and it sounds like it's a good thing I didn't.

You don't see much but it is still disturbing. It actually kind of looks like COD too. Like the AC130 mission.

I get where your original post was coming from. These guys could have all been terrorists and the Reuters guys knew they were putting themselves at risk. The guys in the van who tried to save one of the Reuters guys who survived the attack may have also been terrorists and the kids in their van may have been there just so that if they got killed, it could be used as bad PR against the US.

Unfortunately I don't think that is the case at all. I saw one weapon the whole video and not a single person in the video looked like they were doing anything other than just walking down the street with the reporters.

For all we know those were Iraqis offering protection from insurgents for the Reuters guys. The van was likely just Iraqi civilians who wanted to save some guys life and they had their kids with them.

The worst part is at the end the guy who just took part in killing like 12 (presumably) innocent people including 2 children says "That's what happens when you bring your children into battle".

There is no battle you fool. That guy lives in that country. He was just driving around with his effing kids and you opened fire on him and killed him. Jesus that pisses me off.

[burn_this_city]

Wouldnt be the first time guys in apaches killed the wrong people. The initial shots fired in Desert Storm involved a flight of apaches killing their own tanks.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Waiting for the devil's advocate posts.

Me particularly? Wow.... people really respect my opinion around here.

Uhm... I checked this on Google News and this is only being reported on Huffington and Aljazeera. Nothing on Fox, so maybe it didn't happen.

[Azure]

I'm pretty sure I've read about this a while ago.

There might even have been a CP thread about it.

[flip]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There's a couple of things that we're not really talking about here.

They were clearly on an anti-insurgency mission, they had spotted men carrying AK-47's and RPG's. A few minutes into the tape they mention that one member of the party was firing. Rules of engagement at that point are probably pretty clear.

The problem with fighting this kind of war is that its impossible to seperate enemy insurgents from civillians since there are no uniforms. Once they spotted the weapons at their objectives, once they reported shooting, the men on the grounds fates were sealed.

Then the van shows up to pick up bodies and as soon as they start collecting weapons they become pretty suspicious. and the pilots request and receive permission to fire.

It is a goddamned awful thing to watch, but I understand the actions behind it.

Except there was only one weapon that I could see. The other guys had cameras that they thought were weapons.

Furthermore, you are either mistaken or completely making up the thing about the guys on the ground firing first. They identify the guy with an RPG, they say he was readying to fire (it didn't look like he was at all), then they just arbitrarily say "yeah we had a guy shooting". There is no evidence of any shots fired in the video nor does the guy with the RPG even attempt to fire his weapon.

[puckluck]

Wow I could not even finish watching that. That video just makes me sad. I come from a backround where my parents were tortured by Israeli soldiers for no reason other than being in Lebanon. Just makes me sick that a van that is unarmed trying to save a life is being shot at. It's quite obvious to me, a person who doesn't have any experience with guns that what they had weren't weapons. Nothing can justify what they did and I just feel for the families of the deceased.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by flip

The US guys identify what they think are weapons and then ask to engage. Nobody even mentions the guys on the ground opening fire first.

And there is something wrong with that?

Sure, the outcome is horrible, but usually when they see weapons they open fire.