Prom cancelled because of lesbian teen

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Okay, maybe the term "bigot" isn't the term I was looking for. I just think that a lot of the people in this thread sound exactly like a group of hardcore religious people busting on someone outside of their community.

And if someone was upset about a black person at a dance, I would just think they are a fool. I wouldn't treat them exactly the same way that I was asking them NOT to treat somebody else.

Are you guys not showing intolenrance to his opinion of intolenrance? Fight fire with fire and fight hate with hate? Is that the best way?

What are you even talking about? Go re-read Blaster's post regarding Canadian and American civil liberties fighting the fight for us. That has to be one of the best posts I've read on this site in awhile, I think he put it pretty much perfectly and what he stated isn't "fighting fire with fire" or whatever jibber jabber your going on about.

Nobody is saying Narbez can't have his backward-ass opinion, they're just saying his opinion is backward-ass.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Are you guys not showing intolenrance to his opinion of intolenrance? Fight fire with fire and fight hate with hate? Is that the best way?

I think that was the question I posed 1 page ago.

But like I said above, if your only response to a hateful message is to think something to yourself, you are tacitly endorsing that hateful message. By not confronting it in some manner, you allow it to stand unchallenged for others to accept. And that is the way that discrimination becomes acceptable.

[RyZ]

Originally Posted by valo403

I think he's a fool (well jackass to be exact), just like your example. I don't alter my view because this case is sexuality as opposed to race. And how is anyone treating Narbez the same way as the girl in this story? Are we preventing him from doing anything? Are we saying he can't express his views?

As for your last point, I guess I'm intolerant of intolerance. I'm okay with that label. I guess I could give him a hug, but that might be to icky and disgusting for him.

Fair enough. I'm on your side in 90%+ of this. If the large majority of people are on this side of the line then his (and the schools) views become marginalized and are lost to all but a select few. We have already seen this sweeping change on this subject in NA culture and mindset over the past 10-20 yrs or so. The last thing society needs is to manufacture a new group of people that it is "OK" to be intolerant towards.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Are you guys not showing intolenrance to his opinion of intolenrance? Fight fire with fire and fight hate with hate? Is that the best way?

That implies I hate him. That I hate him implies I have the time of day to think about him after I am done posting in this thread and will go at him again.

No, I don't hate Narbelz. I feel bad for him like I feel bad for a dinosaur that survives the asteroid impact. He's alone, and searching for someone or something to keep him going and fuel his fire, but everywhere he goes things are different and the way he knew things is gone. Instead the smaller creatures that were beneath him are thriving and he can't help but watch as the dominance his species held slips away.

What I hate is his line of thinking, and that it is still alive. I will rebuke that line of thinking, I will hit it till it is a dead horse and doesn't need to be hit any more.

Hating narblez is like hating a tumor caused by cancer. You're hating the effect and not the cause. It's not Narblez fault he's misguided and the only hope is that he comes around, otherwise he'll make a lot of enemies and be a REALLY lonely dinorsaur.

[RyZ]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I think that was the question I posed 1 page ago.

But like I said above, if your only response to a hateful message is to think something to yourself, you are tacitly endorsing that hateful message. By not confronting it in some manner, you allow it to stand unchallenged for others to accept. And that is the way that discrimination becomes acceptable.

Fair enough. And it's a good point. I guess I just don't like the way that it seems we have to push the discrimination off of one group and directly on to another. It doesn't seem very constructive, but perhaps it's the only way.


I don't usually get into these more serious topics of debate often on CP due to the usual hard lining and verbal attacks that frequently go on in threads like this but you guys have been pretty good with this rookie so far. Kudos.

[transplant99]

I just don't like the way that it seems we have to push the discrimination off of one group and directly on to another

He isnt being discriminated against whatsoever...he is perfectly within his rights to have his opinion...quite different from a high school girl having her prom cancelled because she practices a sexual orientation that would "make him throw up" if he witnessed.

Its not even in the same stratosphere of comparisons.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Fair enough. And it's a good point. I guess I just don't like the way that it seems we have to push the discrimination off of one group and directly on to another. It doesn't seem very constructive, but perhaps it's the only way.

He isn't being discriminated against because he hates gay people, he is being told his opinion is archaic and against many of the freedoms our society is based.

You do have a point though, because in the next week or so, someone will post a thread mocking a certain religious group for believing in God, or for thinking there is an afterlife. That pretty much is the same discussion, but with the religious person on the other side of it. It has happened on CP before and will happen as long as their is a CP

This thread is about lesbians. Teenage lesbians.

Let's stay focused on that, for Locke's sake at least.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by Rathji

This thread is about lesbians. Teenage lesbians.

Let's stay focused on that...

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Rathji

He isn't being discriminated against because he hates gay people, he is being told his opinion is archaic and against many of the freedoms our society is based.

You do have a point though, because in the next week or so, someone will post a thread mocking a certain religious group for believing in God, or for thinking there is an afterlife. That pretty much is the same discussion, but with the religious person on the other side of it. It has happened on CP before and will happen as long as their is a CP

This thread is about lesbians. Teenage lesbians.

Let's stay focused on that, for Locke's sake at least.

Dont drag me into this. Heres a question for ya, how come Lesbians arent hot? The average rug muncher looks like a warpig.

I mean, the stereotype in regards to homosexual males is that they take care of themselves, are generally fit and well groomed, while the inverse seems to be true of homosexual females.

The world truly is a strange and special place.

[starseed]

Originally Posted by Locke

Dont drag me into this. Heres a question for ya, how come Lesbians arent hot? The average rug muncher looks like a warpig.

I mean, the stereotype in regards to homosexual males is that they take care of themselves, are generally fit and well groomed, while the inverse seems to be true of homosexual females.

The world truly is a strange and special place.

There is such a thing as 'lipstick lesbians'.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Locke

The world truly is a strange and special place.

A land of confusion....

[photon]

I don't see anything wrong with fighting intolerance with social pressures.

We're social animals, and our beahviour towards each other in part influences those behaviours. Some behaviours are socially unacceptable and society reacts in a negative fashion towards things to try and modify those behaviours.

That's why we feel ashamed for some things. That's why we have manners and all kinds of things.

So when someone comes along and voices a way of thinking that is backwards and wrong-headed to most of society, of course people are going to react negatively. narbeZ is entitled to his opinion, and everyone else is entitled to tell him what they think of his opinion.

And as others have pointed out, telling someone their opinion is foolish isn't discriminating against them, it isn't hate, and it isn't limiting their rights.

People can also have the opinion that black people should be slaves because they are less evolved, and that one should be ridiculed too.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Locke

Dont drag me into this. Heres a question for ya, how come Lesbians arent hot? The average rug muncher looks like a warpig.

I mean, the stereotype in regards to homosexual males is that they take care of themselves, are generally fit and well groomed, while the inverse seems to be true of homosexual females.

The world truly is a strange and special place.

Isn't it obvious? Men are shallow, so you don't have to be hot unless you're trying to attract men.

[Swarly]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Hating narblez is like hating a tumor caused by cancer. You're hating the effect and not the cause. It's not Narblez fault he's misguided and the only hope is that he comes around, otherwise he'll make a lot of enemies and be a REALLY lonely dinorsaur.

poor Denver

[Bunk]

I'll quote "Jasonhouse" from another message board on the topic of homosexual rights:

This is always how it has gone in the history of American society... The progressives push the country forward, and the rightwingnuts do everything they can to stop it... Think about every domestic social issue we have ever faced in this country... The pattern is consistent and without exception. The conservatives always wind up on the wrong side of history. Slavery, women's rights, Native rights, prohibition, education policy, medical research, workers rights, economic regulation, discrimination... The political right has been on the wrong side of ALL of it, without fail, 100% of the time.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Bunk

I'll quote "Jasonhouse" from another message board on the topic of homosexual rights:

Republican presidents Lincoln, Grant, Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and Ford politely cough into their hands and mutter "Bull"

Jasonhouse has a limited timeline view, he's also shown the typical narrow minded approach of a zealot.

If you want to go further, democrat president Andrew Jackson created the Indian Removal Act

Franklin Pierce supported slavery

James Buchanan supported the concept of Kansas as a slave state

Roosevelt supported the internment of the Japanese during WWII

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by photon

I don't see anything wrong with fighting intolerance with social pressures.

We're social animals, and our beahviour towards each other in part influences those behaviours. Some behaviours are socially unacceptable and society reacts in a negative fashion towards things to try and modify those behaviours.

That's why we feel ashamed for some things. That's why we have manners and all kinds of things.

So when someone comes along and voices a way of thinking that is backwards and wrong-headed to most of society, of course people are going to react negatively. narbeZ is entitled to his opinion, and everyone else is entitled to tell him what they think of his opinion.

And as others have pointed out, telling someone their opinion is foolish isn't discriminating against them, it isn't hate, and it isn't limiting their rights.

People can also have the opinion that black people should be slaves because they are less evolved, and that one should be ridiculed too.

Exerting social pressures and telling someone that their opinions are wrong is something that can be done without personal attacks. Even telling someone their opinion is foolish doesn't have to involve personal attacks.

If people want to effectively employ social pressures to change a person's views, attacks of the type pointed out earlier are not going to work out too well. Social pressure is much more powerful when the person being pressured is engaged as a member of the group. Personal attacks like some of those in this thread don't engage the person being attacked. They have the opposite affect.

Has nobody noticed that narbeZ has been out of this discussion for 40 posts or so? Think this is really effective in changing his views?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by narbeZ

What would it be like if they were all over each other on the dancefloor? Myself I would be ready to throw up.

And that's about the crux of it right there.

You don't have the right to not be offended by something.

Neither do these rubes who canceled the prom.

I can't see anything else to this. There's no other reason to cancel it other than "they might offend someone".

If Christian values are offended by lesbians at the prom, don't be a lesbian at the prom, don't stare at lesbians at the prom and if push comes to shove, don't go to the prom.

If lesbians making out makes you want to throw up, don't watch lesbians make out.

ANYWAY, the not-surprising thing in all this is that if these people had just averted their eyes and let a couple kids who like each other go to the dance, they wouldn't be in the news. It would have come and gone and nobody would have been any the wiser.

They've brought it on themselves. Everyone now knows just how backward and dumb these people are. They've ruined their own reputation. A week ago, nobody would have suspected that the most pious and outspoken folks of Itawamba County, Mississippi might not be very smart.

[Temporary_User]

Originally Posted by Bunk

I'll quote "Jasonhouse" from another message board on the topic of homosexual rights:

I hope I get to see the end of prohibition in my lifetime.
It really just sickens me.

[photon]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Exerting social pressures and telling someone that their opinions are wrong is something that can be done without personal attacks. Even telling someone their opinion is foolish doesn't have to involve personal attacks.

I dunno, sometimes if someone's being a jerk telling them a jerk is the only real thing to do. And I'm the one that's usually way far on the "less emotion and more irrational discussion" scale.

I agree that myself I wouldn't have used some of the words or phrases that some used, but otoh I didn't think they were that inappropriate..

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

If people want to effectively employ social pressures to change a person's views, attacks of the type pointed out earlier are not going to work out too well.

Why not? If I'm a jerk all the time, I'm not going to know if no one ever tells me. If enough people tell me I'm a jerk then maybe I'll figure out it's me.. though if I'm a jerk maybe not lol.

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Social pressure is much more powerful when the person being pressured is engaged as a member of the group. Personal attacks like some of those in this thread don't engage the person being attacked. They have the opposite affect.

Has nobody noticed that narbeZ has been out of this discussion for 40 posts or so? Think this is really effective in changing his views?

This discussion won't change his views anyway; you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

Driving someone away does have one positive impact though; they aren't around to spread their views and make others who share them feel they are valid. I don't care if someone is racist/homophobic/whatever, but if they hide because they can't defend their opinions then that's good because it doesn't spread, it doesn't embolden others who are racist/homophobic, and hopefully will keep them out of the decision making process so things like this prom can continue with everyone having a good time.