Apparently Iginla sucks......

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by flip

Go back and read your responses to me. It has all been condescending and full of snide backhanded comments. Even this post if full of insults.

Try and just contribute without having to tell the other posters they don't know anything. Think you can do that?

LOL

Are you serious? This is what you first posted:

Originally Posted by flip

I hope Iggy and the Flames aren't as big of a whiner as you and some of the other posters.

These two threads have honestly made me lose faith a lot of posters ability to objectively judge anything. Some of you guys sound like Canuck trolls that roll through these parts. No logic or reason, only whining and complaining.

Oh, no! Someone call Transplant99, maybe he can enlighten us on how this is actually a Kevin Lowe conspiracy and how Babcock is being blackmailed by Lowe to make sure Iggy doesn't get good ice time!

Looks to be full of snide, condescending comments to me. I believe that is the pot calling the kettle black.

If you have a great post about how Iggy is a better player I would love to see it. In fact, I'm not sure why you are responding to me at all. Much of your first response just repeated things I said, but you tried to use it to make me wrong.

I've gone over why Iginla should get just as much of an opportunity as Nash, but apparently I am just an Iginla whiner.

See, what I'm trying to do is encourage real discussion, not just people whining and being overly dramatic. How about instead of just focusing on defending a select group of posters who are acting like chicken littles, you actually say something of worth.

I feel that I have. And to be quite honest, I am not sure how one steers the conversation away from whining and being overly dramatic by jumping feet first into such practices.

I've provided a fair amount of commentary on why I think Iggy is on the 4th line and why we shouldn't worry. So far you've....said I don't know anything (several times), insinuated I should work for the Oilers (another backhanded insult), called me a drama queen.

I said that you would fit right in with the Oilers scouting staff because, based on your post, you seem to value highlight reel goals more than actual results. That seems to be in-line with the Oilers drafting strategy as they often draft flashy players who do not achieve much in the way of results. Sorry if you misunderstood.

The only contributions I've seen from you is that you repeated what I said, but turned the context around. I said Iggy is mainly a shooter, you said that too. I said Iggy is better on defence than Nash, you repeated that too. I said Iggy was a pretty good set up man, you repeated that too.

And I used all of that to conclude that Iginla is the better offensive player that brings more to the table offensively.

I said some guys have a wider range of offensive weapons. You said I don't know anything. I didn't say they were BETTER, I said wider range. Iggy needs a set up man, is ok at D and isn't really a dominant puck handler.

I said that there was no logical analysis to defend that statement and I stand behind this. People are so high on Toews and Nash, but look at what they have actually done before you buy into all of the hype these guys are getting. That's all that I am saying. I'm sorry that you seem to be getting so upset about it.

Nash is definitely a dominant puck handler. Richards and Toews probably are better defensively than Iggy and both of them are C, not wingers, so they can take face offs too. I also think they are equal or better passers/set up men than Iginla.

I agree that they are better two-way players, however that's where it ends. I think Iginla is the better passer and with respect to faceoffs, Crosby is currently one of the best faceoff takers in the league, so I really don't see why we would need another centre on his line, unless the fear is that he will always be getting waived out.

Since I know you'll want to twist my words and start posting Pts and awards I'll repeat myself. Some guys on Team Canada who are competing with Iggy for that 1st line spot have a WIDER range of talents. Not better. WIDER RANGE. That means they may not be pure shooters like Iggy but they are proficient at a RANGE of different offensive talents. Babcock may like that.

You can say that they have a "wider range of offensive talents" but that does not make it true. They have not shown such things during their careers. They aren't as strong, or as gritty, they aren't as good set-up men, they aren't better shooters, and they aren't as good at playing the body. So what have they got? Better at faceoffs, sure, but who cares since Crosby is the centre of that line? What else? Better 1-on-1? Okay, yeah, I agree. Anything else? Personally, I don't think so.

Also, let's not forget that this is BY FAR the deepest team in the tourney. With the exception of Crosby being on the 1st line and the SJ line staying together, pretty much EVERYONE else on the team (cept maybe Morrow, he's a gritty/checking kind of guy) could be switched around with good reason.

Sure, but doing so may yield lesser results, as has been seen with Bergeron and Toews playing on the first line in place of Iginla.

[Stocky]

Originally Posted by flip

Now, Yzerman and co. have learned from that mistake and do the WJHC route of Team Canada and bring the best 20 skaters.

Actually, they use a blank template outlining the roles they want on the team and fill the roles outlined in the template with players. This is where the debate somes in. I heard Wayne explain the process in an interview.

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Iginla was a 4th liner from the get go. Even before Christmas. Again, watch the hockey powers show. You'll see the selection process of Bergeron being on Crosby's right wing cause they were good together in some irrelevant kid's tournament 5 years ago.

I wonder if Iginla would still have been penciled in as the 13th F if for instance, the Flames were leading the NW, battling with Chi and SJ for top conference seeding, and Iginla was a big factor in that (ala Nov) and on pace for 90 points....

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by Stocky

Actually, they use a blank template outlining the roles they want on the team and fill the roles outlined in the template with players. This is where the debate somes in. I heard Wayne explain the process in an interview.

Yeah they definitely didn't go with the top 20 skaters, Bergeron wouldn't be anywhere near the team if that were the case... ditto Seabrook and probably Neidermeyer too.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by I_H8_Crawford

I wonder if Iginla would still have been penciled in as the 13th F if for instance, the Flames were leading the NW, battling with Chi and SJ for top conference seeding, and Iginla was a big factor in that (ala Nov) and on pace for 90 points....

Hard to say... international selections are so different.
For example in Finland, they've seen Oli Jokinen play like rubbish for about 2 years now. Is he demoted to 4th line or 13th forward? No. His 2nd line center or not on the team.

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Hard to say... international selections are so different.
For example in Finland, they've seen Oli Jokinen play like rubbish for about 2 years now. Is he demoted to 4th line or 13th forward? No. His 2nd line center or not on the team.

I agree, there's no way to tell, but they even said the Flames' tailspin was a factor in deciding Bouwmeester's fate, and I would put money down that if the Flames didn't go into a tailspin, #4 is out there, and Iginla probably gets put into a more prominent role.

But who knows? We never will, I am just a firm believer that Iginla and the other Flames sealed their own fates with their less than spectacular play this year... but I am not saying someone like Nash who has been equally terrible this year is beyond reproach either.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Stocky

Actually, they use a blank template outlining the roles they want on the team and fill the roles outlined in the template with players. This is where the debate somes in. I heard Wayne explain the process in an interview.

I know what you mean but I was referring more to some posters calling out Babcock for saying Iggy should play a physical game.

He may not might be just used for a scoring role, much like in the WJHC, many scorers and 1st line players will be playing a 3rd or 4th line role with limited minutes.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by I_H8_Crawford

I agree, there's no way to tell, but they even said the Flames' tailspin was a factor in deciding Bouwmeester's fate, and I would put money down that if the Flames didn't go into a tailspin, #4 is out there, and Iginla probably gets put into a more prominent role.

But who knows? We never will, I am just a firm believer that Iginla and the other Flames sealed their own fates with their less than spectacular play this year... but I am not saying someone like Nash who has been equally terrible this year is beyond reproach either.

But I think that's Canada's mistake. You take players based on career, previous roles, and experience. Not performance over a year.

How many times in this tournament have you seen other teams and thought to yourself "That guy's still playing?"

Here's an Canadian example of an old guy. Paul Kariya. Now he's probably over the hill and shouldn't be considered on this team. But put him in a tournament like this and he'd probably get a goal or two due to his experience. International selections are tricky like that.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Ark2

LOL

Are you serious? This is what you first posted:

Looks to be full of snide, condescending comments to me. I believe that is the pot calling the kettle black.

Yeah but why do you care? I never said anything bad about you. I was making fun of people who said the tournament is a failure, Iggy is being disgraced and disrespected, Babcock is an idiot and that there is a conspiracy against Iggy.

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

But I think that's Canada's mistake. You take players based on career, previous roles, and experience. Not performance over a year.

How many times in this tournament have you seen other teams and thought to yourself "That guy's still playing?"

Here's an Canadian example of an old guy. Paul Kariya. Now he's probably over the hill and shouldn't be considered on this team. But put him in a tournament like this and he'd probably get a goal or two due to his experience. International selections are tricky like that.

Yet that is what the 2006 debacle was hammered with - they took the experience over the youth and who was playing well at the time...

Honestly, with Team Canada management, unless it's gold they lose.

2nd guesses come out when unverified leaked rosters get online, and they keep on going until Canada either holds gold or they don't, and that is when the knives really come out.

Hell look at all of the "Babcock is a moron" posts on this board... I don't agree with some of his line management, but the fact is his team is undefeated, and people already want his head.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by I_H8_Crawford

Yet that is what the 2006 debacle was hammered with - they took the experience over the youth and who was playing well at the time...

Honestly, with Team Canada management, unless it's gold they lose.

2nd guesses come out when unverified leaked rosters get online, and they keep on going until Canada either holds gold or they don't, and that is when the knives really come out.

Hell look at all of the "Babcock is a moron" posts on this board... I don't agree with some of his line management, but the fact is his team is undefeated, and people already want his head.

I've always thought the criticism of the 2006 team was a bit unfair.
It was a team that had won in 2002 and 2004. It was on the big ice far away. The format was absolutely ridiculous, having to fly to Italy and play 8 game in 11 days (all because they wanted the stupid Italians to be equal to the rest). Canada can't win every tournament and it would always be an uphill battle to win in Europe. Kind of like Brazil trying to win a World Cup in Europe (for all your soccer junkies out there)

But that failure has made Canada do a 180 and this team selection is even worse I think. I don't question Babcock, he can only do so much with what he has.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

But that failure has made Canada do a 180 and this team selection is even worse I think. I don't question Babcock, he can only do so much with what he has.

..... Seriously?

[Reign of Fire]

Babcock can "you know what" to his own namesake...its obvious, he didn't want Iginla on this team and maybe none of them did cause of the way they are treating him...I have feeling that this was the same reason Bouwmeester was left of this team, but with Iginla they had no choice. Mad props to Iggy for staying classy this entire time

[flip]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I've always thought the criticism of the 2006 team was a bit unfair.
It was a team that had won in 2002 and 2004. It was on the big ice far away. The format was absolutely ridiculous, having to fly to Italy and play 8 game in 11 days (all because they wanted the stupid Italians to be equal to the rest). Canada can't win every tournament and it would always be an uphill battle to win in Europe. Kind of like Brazil trying to win a World Cup in Europe (for all your soccer junkies out there)

But that failure has made Canada do a 180 and this team selection is even worse I think. I don't question Babcock, he can only do so much with what he has.

Other than Neids for Jbo and maybe Green for Seabrook (or Pronger), I just don't see any holes in the selection for this team though.

There can't be more than 1 or 2 forwards who could earn a spot in favour of other guys (Bergeron, Perry, Getzlaf for maybe Stamkos, Lecavalier/St Louis, Richards).

Point is that most of this roster is ok. Babcock has been pretty good. And I'm sure Iggy will get his shot.

[Keselke]

Originally Posted by BourqueBourqueBourque

Keselke is a Canucks troll..
Probably one of the guys who thinks Burrows deserves a spot over Iginla.

Nvm, banned.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by flip

Other than Neids for Jbo and maybe Green for Seabrook (or Pronger), I just don't see any holes in the selection for this team though.

There can't be more than 1 or 2 forwards who could earn a spot in favour of other guys (Bergeron, Perry, Getzlaf for maybe Stamkos, Lecavalier/St Louis, Richards).

Point is that most of this roster is ok. Babcock has been pretty good. And I'm sure Iggy will get his shot.

1 or 2 defense or 1 or 2 forwards makes a big difference.
The team has no wingers.

Let's play Nash on left wing... no wait, He'll be better on right wing.. oh wait, let's put Toews on left wing.. no that won't work, let's put Richards on the PP on left wing..... oh wait... What's next? Morrow on the top line?

I would have taken a couple more wingers like St. Louis and heck even Gagne.

Gagne/Sakic/Iginla used to be a dynamite line. Now that Sakic is retired just stick Crosby in Sakic's place.. instant chemistry right?

[HPLovecraft]

I'm surprised no one has pulled the race card out yet.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

I'm surprised no one has pulled the race card out yet.

I'm actually thrilled that no one has.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Rubicant

I'm actually thrilled that no one has.

Can you imagine if something like this were to happen in a couple of other sports out there that will go unnamed? A team full of white guys and the one black guy with talent gets benched and demoted to spot duty on the 4th line? Holy smokes.

Good ol' hockey.

And for the record I don't think it has anything to do with race, I'm just surprised this argument has gone on so long on CP and HF and a number of other message boards without this coming up.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Can you imagine if something like this were to happen in a couple of other sports out there that will go unnamed? A team full of white guys and the one black guy with talent gets benched and demoted to spot duty on the 4th line? Holy smokes.

Good ol' hockey.

And for the record I don't think it has anything to do with race, I'm just surprised this argument has gone on so long on CP and HF and a number of other message boards without this coming up.

Oh I wasn't implying that you did.