Anyone see Kanye West

[Winsor_Pilates]

Well this is getting really long and unproductive so I'll try to keep this somewhat short and only respond to the important points.

Originally posted by Cowperson
I asked, in that instance, if the reason race was not a factor was ONLY because everyone involved was white and asked if in the New Orleans situation if race was brought into the situation not because it was relevant, but because the accuser may be a racist himself.

Race was not brought into the Wabumum situation because:
-There was no disproportionate amount of any race in that situation, therefore nothing varied from the everyday norm.
-There is not track record of whites getting systematically shafted in Canada
-There was no or hardly any immediate danger to the lives of the people there

The different gravity of the two situations is irrelevant to the debate point as I've adequately explained above.

I agree. I never said the gravity mattered, it's the content that I'm concerned with.

If Bush can be called a racist for incompetence or indifference, why can't I call the black mayor a racist as well.

So we can say that Bush is indifferent, but Kanye can't say he doesn't care. Indifference and not caring are pretty close.
If you wanna say the mayor doesn't care about black people, go ahead. I never said you can't.

Therefore we circle around to Mr. West's comments, the careless and self-serving insertion of race into this debate

There are many people other than West who thought of a racial element as well. They are not all black and don't have anything to gain from that viewpoint. It is not careless and selfserving.

Just a guess, but those five or six guys shot to death on a bridge today for sniping at civilian contractors are going to turn out to be black. Is that a racist guess or just a cold analysis of probability?

you're probobly right, but that's also part of the problem. Why is it that so many black Americans are in gangs, live in ghettos, end up int jail etc.?
What has GW Bush done in his terms to help these communities? If the answer is nothing, than is it not fair to say George Bush doesn't care about them?

If you've ever been to New Orleans and want to go searching for the classic racial stereotype of "shiftless, unemployed gangs of young blacks with mean, hateful looks in their eyes" then you won't have to go far off the beaten tourist path in The Big Easy.

Exactly.
Are these people just born that way?
Theres a reason that so many black youth end up like that, and the Gov not giving a fata about there communities is a huge part of it.

It must be pretty dark in there yourself with your head up Noam Chomsky's ass. Fortunately, I don't get my news through the filter of the Daily Leftist.

yes, I am a Chomsky cloned leftist, because I think that GW Bush has some sway over the mass media of the USA. That's a simple fact, everybody knows it. It's not a leftist conspiracy.
Anyway, you're the one who linked Bush and the media in this discusion anyway. Kanye called them out seperatly. He didn't say anything about Bush controlling the media. You brought that up and I responded.

[FanningTheFlames]

Those comments were completely inappropriate at a fund-raiser for disaster victim relief. Ballsy, yes, but helpful, no.

I don't doubt that Bush - or whoever the president is - would do everything that he could to help whomever, black or white, still in New Orleans. I don't think he's very capable as far as presidents go, but I am sure he is trying. What has been the biggest acerbation in terms of death and damage so far, in my mind, is the total breakdown in civil order following the disaster, as if both the state and the thin veneer of civilisation dissolved simultaneously upon Katrina's arrival. It's pretty disturbing to watch an American city turn into "Waterworld", both literally and figuratively, overnight. One tourist at the Superdome described it as a "Lord of the Flies" situation.

Bush can be blamed for one thing at least. Really cheezy and pointless publicity stunts that do nothing but make him look er, well, cheezy and pointless. I am primarily referring to his plane ride. What was his quote, 'Gee, it must be doubly horrible on the ground?' It also didn't help that he was in the middle of a long vacation when this occurred.


edit: fixed book reference

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Sep 4 2005, 06:57 PM
Well, I went searching. Interesting stuff I found.

I assumed both pictures were real. I know I saw the one of the 'looter' on CNN.com . I am sure that they did not use the caption that yahoo's website has beside the picture. However, I did find the picture on yahoo news and it does have the same caption.

CNN changed the caption

If you go to the above link you will find some support for my statement about the changing of the caption by CNN.

I also found this picture in the same yahoo news slideshow as the 'looter' picture. It is also an AP photo like the original we've been discussing.

Another looter

There in the foreground you will see Whitey. Whitey is clearly accused of looting by the caption.

**edited to change final picture link to the picture and text page, not just the image location.

Once again, Snopes to the rescue.

Yes the photos and the captions are correct. Those captions and pictures did appear together. Was this racist? Unknown. That's an opinion and unless you can get inside the heads of the caption writers, cannot be proven one way or another.

However, the photographer of the LOOTING picture said he witnessed these people breaking into the store and take the food. The photographer of the FINDING picture said he's unsure where the people got the food. He didn't witness them take anything from anywhere. He did say that he saw loaves of bread floating down the street from stores demolished by the storm... they could have just as likely picked up the food.

I think it takes more than two pictures side by side to prove the point. I will say that throughout this ordeal I've seen black people demonized and white people canonized. Others may have seen differently. But I can see why Kanye was upset. Wrong time? Perhaps. But sometimes the mouth engages before the brain kicks into gear... Kanye readily admits that he lets his emotion get the better of him.

[Devils'Advocate]

"War of the Pigs"? I tried looking it up, but came up with nothing. "Lord of the Flies" maybe?

All the more reason to get people in there ASAP. It takes time for Jack to get his people organized. During the first day people are still dazed and confused, but if you give them a sense of order they still feel that there is a civilization and societal norms still hold. But it doesn't take long for all hell to break loose.

I remember the movie came out at the time that we were reading this in Grade 10. Wow. That was 18 years ago and I still remember this... my teacher was upset that they cast the boys as American and not British. Because originally the kids were British school boys - prop, proper, disciplined. Point was that even the most civilized, those most conditioned to fit into societal norms, can turn to animals overnight.

It is sad though. You would think that the species would evolve sometime in the last 10,000 years. But it's apparent that we still can't tell right from wrong, just legal from illegal. And without cops, there is no illegal.

[Cheese]

Originally posted by Cowperson+Sep 4 2005, 12:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cowperson @ Sep 4 2005, 12:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Certantly. The other poster was insinuating that the response to the disaster in NOLA would have been considerably better if the majority of the trapped people were white. An accusation that racism played a significant role in the speed of the response.

The implied statement is that those in power are racists. The further implication is that those in power are white, as there is no reason to expect that black leaders would be racist against blacks.

The accusation that the response was slow because of racism is being made based on the presumed skin colour of those in charge only.

Would you not agree that judging a person, or making accusations based only on skin colour is racist?

Its only about a month since the CN derailment at Wabamum Lake near Edmonton, where toxic chemicals were spilled into the lake and where the lateness and confusion of the response from CN Rail and provincial officials drew substantial criticism.

So far, to my knowledge, no resident of Lake Wabamum has accused the President of CN Rail or Premier Klein of racism.

They're passed at those people, and justifiably so, but sometimes a fata-up is just a fata-up.

Meanwhile, red neck Texas has taken in over 200,000 mostly black refugees and the white governor has said children will be taken into Texas schools without reservation.

Meanwhile, thousands of white Texas volunteers are working at places like the Houston Astrodome to provide shelter for blacks.

Meanwhile, in the early hours of the disaster, white helicopter pilots and crews were risking their lives rescuing people in difficult situations.

Just because a black man says its racism doesn't automatically make it so. . . . . its a statement that should be questioned and weighed against the facts in this instance. The author of the statement may in fact be offering a racist point of view himself. Not all racists are WASP's.

And why is the black mayor and mostly black civic council of mostly black New Orleans not being questioned more heavily about the lack of a proper local disaster plan that, in most communities, would have provided for the evacuation of at least the infirm and elderly on short notice? The Mayor this morning was crowing that "his" disaster plan got 80% of the people out of New Orleans when the reality is pretty much all of them drove themselves out when he yelled "RUN!!" There's no real evidence New Orleans had much of a detailed local disaster plan at all and that's why the poor, elderly and infirm were left behind.

It doesn't matter to me that the mayor and his council are black . . . . but they're just as accountable if not more so than the white FEMA officials who were late off the mark.

This is going to be very interesting to analyze when its all done, where the breakdowns occurred, because there will be plenty of both blacks and whites, Republicans and Democrats, past beauracrats and present ones, who will need to get their asses kicked.

Cowperson [/b][/quote]
Bloody well right Mr Cow.... :tup:

[jonesy]

Originally posted by Cheese+Sep 5 2005, 11:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cheese @ Sep 5 2005, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Its only about a month since the CN derailment at Wabamum Lake near Edmonton, where toxic chemicals were spilled into the lake and where the lateness and confusion of the response from CN Rail and provincial officials drew substantial criticism.

...
Meanwhile, red neck Texas has taken in over 200,000 mostly black refugees and the white governor has said children will be taken into Texas schools without reservation.

...
Cowperson

Bloody well right Mr Cow.... :tup: [/b][/quote]
I had to laugh. Some of the loudest posters on this board automatically assume that Texans are racists and must hate blacks. Then I see that a quarter of a million refugees have been taken in and there are thousands of volunteers caring for them all in Texas.
Texas is doing a heck of a job helping its neighbor, colour be damned.

[jonesy]

oh, and one other thing regarding the Mayor of New Orleans which was alluded to by Cowperson, I think he doth protest too loud, you know what I mean?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by jonesy@Sep 5 2005, 04:29 PM
I had to laugh. Some of the loudest posters on this board automatically assume that Texans are racists and must hate blacks. Then I see that a quarter of a million refugees have been taken in and there are thousands of volunteers caring for them all in Texas.
Texas is doing a heck of a job helping its neighbor, colour be damned.

Did any single person in this thread actually say anything about Texans being racist red necks or doing a poor job of helping out?
Maybe I missed it, or are you referring to different threads?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Havn't seen this mentioned on any of the hurricane threads yet. Thought I'd put it in this one since it's about questionable comments.

Barbara Bush on the residents of the Superdome:
"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them."

Just stupid

[Cowperson]

And the Mayor of New York says he would never leave anyone behind. . . . . perhaps implying the Mayor Of New Orleans did.

Bloomberg noted that city cops and firefighters regularly practice dealing with a range of natural disasters and would not be caught flatfooted.

He also emphasized that the city would assume responsibility for taking care of poor residents who likely wouldn't have cars or money for transportation.

"We have evacuation routes," he said. "We have ways to call and get MTA buses to take people out if they don't have automobiles."

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/sto...p-293505c.html

Cowperson

[FireFly]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Sep 6 2005, 02:30 PM
And the Mayor of New York says he would never leave anyone behind. . . . . perhaps implying the Mayor Of New Orleans did.

Bloomberg noted that city cops and firefighters regularly practice dealing with a range of natural disasters and would not be caught flatfooted.

He also emphasized that the city would assume responsibility for taking care of poor residents who likely wouldn't have cars or money for transportation.

"We have evacuation routes," he said. "We have ways to call and get MTA buses to take people out if they don't have automobiles."

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/sto...p-293505c.html

Cowperson

This is what I was talking about. New York has a plan in place should something so devastating occur, and yet New Orleans didn't. Whose fault is that?

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by FireFly+Sep 6 2005, 08:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FireFly @ Sep 6 2005, 08:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Sep 6 2005, 02:30 PM
And the Mayor of New York says he would never leave anyone behind. . . . . perhaps implying the Mayor Of New Orleans did.

Bloomberg noted that city cops and firefighters regularly practice dealing with a range of natural disasters and would not be caught flatfooted.

He also emphasized that the city would assume responsibility for taking care of poor residents who likely wouldn't have cars or money for transportation.

"We have evacuation routes," he said. "We have ways to call and get MTA buses to take people out if they don't have automobiles."

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/sto...p-293505c.html

Cowperson

This is what I was talking about. New York has a plan in place should something so devastating occur, and yet New Orleans didn't. Whose fault is that?[/b][/quote]
It seems pretty obvious that New Orleans would have a much-reduced disaster-response plan. New York was already hit by terrorists, and has already suffered a 'disaster' of epic propotions (and when I say epic, I mean totally dwarfed by the Hurricane). I don't think it's fair to compare what are probably the richest and poorest cities in the United States and expect them to have equally prepared plans of escape. There are tens of thousands of important personages in New York... in New Orleans... there are great jazz bars? Blue-collar refining districts? Call me crazy, but I could easily see the two municipalities as having very different levels of support from state/federal governments, as well as resources to plan an effective escape.

As for the Mayor 'protesting too much', maybe he should have played a more low-key role, like Guiliani? All I remember is Guiliani and Pataki all over the news, 24/7, getting better exposure than any politician could ever hope for. I don't see the Mayor of New Orlean's complaints as being 'over the top', when the disaster itself is 'over the top'. If I were the Mayor of Calgary, and believed Calgarians were dying due to slow response times of federal/state agencies, I'd flip out, as would most of you.

A disaster that affects (brutally) two/three states, at least, is (probably) too large to expect the city of NO to have covered it's bases.

Supposedly geologists and geographers have been saying this would happen for quite some time. Obviously somebody dropped the ball, be it the State, Municipal, or Federal authorities. Which of these bodies should have been responsible for taking the lead role on this issue? I have no idea, but I'm sure the finger-pointing will give us a clue eventually.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+Sep 7 2005, 10:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ Sep 7 2005, 10:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

This is what I was talking about. New York has a plan in place should something so devastating occur, and yet New Orleans didn't. Whose fault is that?

It seems pretty obvious that New Orleans would have a much-reduced disaster-response plan. New York was already hit by terrorists, and has already suffered a 'disaster' of epic propotions (and when I say epic, I mean totally dwarfed by the Hurricane). I don't think it's fair to compare what are probably the richest and poorest cities in the United States and expect them to have equally prepared plans of escape. [/b][/quote]
I disagree it should be obvious they would have a reduced disaster plan.

They're in a hurricane zone.

They're well under sea level.

They have a long history of being flooded, to the point where they don't even bury their dead underground but use crypts instead.

We're not talking about much expense either.

We're talking about writing on a piece of paper where mental hospices are, where old folks homes are and working with the transit department to have buses lined up outside to evacuate them in case of a significant hurricane warning. It becomes an automatic process that is practiced periodically so that it becomes routine.

We're talking about having a regional plan so there is a place to take those people and where volunteers would be waiting to look after them. Again, periodically practiced.

And executed BEFORE the disaster happens.

That doesn't cost a lot of money. That just takes brains and anticipation. That type of planning is NORMAL in other major urban municipalities, as the Mayor of New York said, including Calgary or Okotoks or High River or wherever.

It wasn't normal in New Orleans and the question should be asked as to why it wasn't.

As the New York Times - hardly a friend of GW Bush - opined today on its editorial page: "It was chilling, to put it mildly, to read Mayor Ray Nagin's comment in The Journal that New Orleans's hurricane plan was "get people to higher ground and have the feds and the state airlift supplies to them."

He didn't even get them to higher ground.

Cowperson

[Cowperson]

People might find the bottom link rather fascinating, a post-mortem on the emergency response to the ice storm of 1998 in Quebec and Ontario that left about 4 million without power in the depths of winter.

First, a Wikpedia description of the disaster:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Canada_ice_storm

Among other things, in the link below, a notation that failed communications and impassable roads were the major stumbling block to not only getting help to where it was needed, but also to know what help was required. It noted that advance preparation and practice on a local and regional level was the key to handling similar crisis. And the curious notation in the Ontario conclusions that people are no longer willing to leave their pets behind, so allowance had to be made for that.

http://www.ocipep.gc.ca/ep/ep_digest/aj_98_fea2_e.asp

Cowperson

[mykalberta]

Ok, I have heard alot of stuff here and this is my one and only reply on it, this is going to be somewhat long and somewhat rantish.

Here yah go,

The FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS NOT A FATAING PARENT, its at most a BABYSITTER that shows up when its convienient and needs money.

People in New Orleans who were stuck at the Super Dome, NO MATTER WHAT RACE are their because of choices they made in their life. Good or Bad. No one can tell me that in the US you cant go to college if you graduated high school cause you dont have enough money. That is shinguards, the US ARMY will pay for you to go.

Women who have unprotected intercourse with partners and have children whom they cant support NO MATTER WHAT RACE is no ones fault but their own. They are the only ones to blame for their situation following the hurricane. Personal responsibility is a b!tch but you asked for it so now you got it.

Now "redneck racist black-hating whites" like the ones who RUN WALMART told the police they could go in and take "whatever supplies they needed" but with the understanding that the police would then be responsible. People who take a TV or anything that is not absolutely necessary to survive are looters are should be arrested.

"Redneck Black Hating Whites" like the ones in Texas who have opened their public system to over 100,000 welfare candidates should not be criticized for not taking more. I dont see California willing to offer to take 100,000. Also Texas probably has close to if not more "non-whites" than all of Canada combined.

"Redneck Black Hating Whites" like the ones in the US Military work 16 hour shifts to heli lift people out of the city. Local officials in LA arent doing it, the US MILITARY IS. The Military is taking a SIGNIFICANT legal risk bringing in people who are trained not to kiss as but to kick it. These are people trained to defend the country by any means necessary.

Evacuees have one person to blame and that is them selves. Plain and simple, blame all you want for the relief taking time to get there, but most of the blame falls on the people themselves.

Think about it, if Halifax had been flooded, how long would it take to get stuff there using broken down helicopters. Please tell me. The US is the country probably most equipped to handle something like this and they handled it the best they could. People need to remember that in the Constitution of the US, the pres is only supposed to handle matters of external affairs. Congress and the Senate are supposed to handle local affairs and the states are supposed to be able for the most part to take care of themselves.

The feds did all they could, FEMA planned for this event, the problem is that:

(1) they didnt account for 1/3 of the police force leaving
(2) didnt account for the amount of flooding, thought they could move semi trucks in for relief -
(3) didnt expect the lawlessness that occured. That is very important because they had counted on the fact that they could use private suppliers with minimal potection to mvoe supplies in. Because of the lawlessness it was decided that the legal risk was to great.

There simply wasnt anything more that could be done. And those who said why werent the levies upgraded, that is a 6+billiond dollar job. If any of you are familiar with network uptime (my job) 99.9 uptime is relatively easy and cost effective to maintin. when you get into the 99.99 and 99.999 uptime then thats where the costs skyrocket and trust me, I was contracted to a pipeline company that needed 99.999 uptime dure to gov regulations and the cost was astonishing.

Simple explanation, New Orelans is like any city that is fun to go to, Las Vegas, Monte Carlo etc. Money reigns supreme and where there is money there is a criminal element. That criminal element spread to the police force which is supposedly the most corrupt in the US.

Thats it I am done talking about this - what a waste of my time.

MYK

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by mykalberta@Sep 13 2005, 11:17 AM
Thats it I am done talking about this - what a waste of my time.

Yeah, mine too.

I'm not familiar with uptime but I am familiar with the difference between a 6 billion dollar job and a 200 billion dollar job, which is what they are now faced with. It might have been a good investment, no?

If you think this whole disaster was handled as well as it possibly could have been handled then you obviously have very little faith in any level of government to do anything right.'

The director of FEMA has been fired. Don't you think that's a hint that maybe the wonderful George Bush doesn't even think it's gone well?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by mykalberta@Sep 13 2005, 10:17 AM
People in New Orleans who were stuck at the Super Dome, NO MATTER WHAT RACE are their because of choices they made in their life. Good or Bad. No one can tell me that in the US you cant go to college if you graduated high school cause you dont have enough money. That is shinguards, the US ARMY will pay for you to go.

Women who have unprotected intercourse with partners and have children whom they cant support NO MATTER WHAT RACE is no ones fault but their own. They are the only ones to blame for their situation following the hurricane. Personal responsibility is a b!tch but you asked for it so now you got it.

Are you joking, or are you really this ignorant?