Killing for Jesus

[BlackAce]

Originally Posted by FireFly

It's not even about changing people's views, it's about respect. His comments are childish and rude. I have no issue discussing why I believe with people who wish to discuss it and have done so many times, but drive-by insults are not welcome in any forum. Or at least, that was my impression.

I remember the days when the religion threads would be 20 pages long with nothing but insightful and respectful posts. It's been a long time since that level of mature discussion could occur.

Are you kidding me? Respect?? Religion is a major breeding ground for producing closeminded, judgmental, respectless humans... All religions! It's built right into the brainwas, er, teachings... I am just having a little fun here and surprise, surprise the religious snipers show up in full verbal force... I will put my beliefs up against any religion worldwide and walk away with a smile...

I'll show my own way out of this thread... but I am just saying, don't talk to me about religious respect... That is simply a blatant drive-by insult

... and now I say good day! ...and again, lots of love CPers

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I just pulled them out and looked at them. Holy crap my blood type is O RH+, and my religan is RC.

How dare they inscribe my religion on my dog tags, I must be a former crusader.

RC does mean Religious Crusader afterall.

After this Brouhaha, you know Trijicon will just start changing the "T" in Trijicon to lowercase T's and claim they are crosses.

[worth]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Sadly I have all of my rank stripes, my unit beret, my UN peacekeeping ball cap, my unit flash. My unit ball cap and a couple of fairly cool unit T-Shirts including one I got in trade from the 101st airbourne in a box in storage.

You should pull that stuff out and hang it up and frame the chevrons and the unit flash. I've got a few things hanging around in my place.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I'm a catholic.... a fallen one albeit....

I don't know what JH8:12 is and I bet 99% of most people don't either. Also, I've seen John 3:16 before (football games and the like) but I don't have any idea what its about.... and again I bet most people don't either. In fact, I bet if you asked 1000 people you probably would be hard pressed to find more than 10 who have ever read a bible.

Yep, same here. No idea what JH8:12 means.

[Azure]

Can I get one that says, "...and you shall know my name is the Lord, when I lay my vengeance up thee!"

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by BlackAce

Are you kidding me? Respect?? Religion is a major breeding ground for producing closeminded, judgmental, respectless humans... All religions! It's built right into the brainwas, er, teachings... I am just having a little fun here and surprise, surprise the religious snipers show up in full verbal force... I will put my beliefs up against any religion worldwide and walk away with a smile...

I'll show my own way out of this thread... but I am just saying, don't talk to me about religious respect... That is simply a blatant drive-by insult

... and now I say good day! ...and again, lots of love CPers

Thats funny because I was raised in a Catholic family went to church every sunday did the bed time prayers, did Sunday school and went to Catholic Schools.

Yet I believe that I am very open minded.

Meanwhile your doing a very generalized smear of all religions, calling people that have faith and follow a religion ######ed and call for the ban of religion.

I actually question your open mindedness.

And you keep promising to leave threads after drive bys like your first post and you never do.

Having trouble finding the door?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by worth

You should pull that stuff out and hang it up and frame the chevrons and the unit flash. I've got a few things hanging around in my place.

i like the idea of hanging up some of my stuff. Maybe that will be a weekend plan.

[CaptainCrunch]

Deuteronomy 23:1
No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.


Hammer time

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by BlackAce

Are you kidding me? Respect?? Religion is a major breeding ground for producing closeminded, judgmental, respectless humans... All religions! It's built right into the brainwas, er, teachings... I am just having a little fun here and surprise, surprise the religious snipers show up in full verbal force... I will put my beliefs up against any religion worldwide and walk away with a smile...

I'll show my own way out of this thread... but I am just saying, don't talk to me about religious respect... That is simply a blatant drive-by insult

... and now I say good day! ...and again, lots of love CPers

Wow, you're going to go off about respect, after all the tirades about how people who belive something are stupid, and mentally deficient.

Let's see, the majority of the admitedly religous folks in this thread are saying things along the lines of "who cares what people think, let them believe whatever they want". While also making note of the fact that extremism in almost all cases is not justifiable.

Meanwhile you, the professed athiest, are the one being intollerant, and unaccepting that people may view the world differently than you.

Myself, I was raised Roman Catholic, but at this point I'd put myself in the don't really believe category, and I'm of the opinion that respect is a quality of the individual, not the religion.

I'd say the vast majority of religious people are more than happy to go about believing what they believe and to let others do the same.
By the same token, most athiests are cool with doing the same.

On both sides, you've got intollerant ######s who feel the need to tell others their beliefs or lack there of are stupid and childish.
Those are the types of people who do things like protest funerals with "God Hates Fags" signs, or blow themselves up in a crowded market, or bitch and complain that everyone's "fairytales" are a huge insult to them, and feel the need to tell everyone on an internet board that they are stupid.

Surely those are different levels of disrespect, but no matter what level you are at, being a disrespectful jerk, is being a jerk.

I see no difference between the athiest who goes about his day, and accepts that some people need something to belive in, and the Catholic, Jew, or Muslim, who goes about his day and accepts that there are a bevy of different belief systems in the world, and that theirs works for them.

Likewise, I don't make a distinction between the fanatic who stands on a street corner yelling at people that they'll go to hell becasue "God Hates Fags", and the typical "Persecuted Athiest" who takes every religious symbol that they come across as a personal insult, sees it as "having religion forced down my throat" and tells anyone within a 10 mile radius of a church that they're mentally deficient because they belive in fairy tales.

Edit: I guess the main takeaway from this is that it is more important to base your respect for someone on their actions, rather than their beliefs. And right now, your actions/posts, aren't exactly what I'd hold up as great examples of respectful actions.

[jammies]

I don't understand how someone can reconcile belief in Christ with a career in making weapons. I wouldn't have a problem with these "Christians" if they actually did what Christ preached.

I can understand wanting to believe in higher powers, but I can't accept that this is an excuse for hypocrisy. Does that make me intolerant? I suppose, if by "intolerant" you mean "unwilling to accept someone's explanation of their beliefs when it directly conflicts with the supposed inspiration for those beliefs."

[Finny61]

I honestly don't know or knew of any soldiers who ever went to war in hopes of killing in the name of Christ, Christianity, or because it was just cool to shoot people (I hope very few exist). If I'm a soldier on the lines in WW2 for example I'm praying to God not because I want to kill others, or win the war, it's because I want peace, I want to protect my country/family, and I want to go home to my wife and kids in one piece. I woudn't be speaking for every soldier but I would venture those are common feelings. If a weapons company is doing this well so be it even though I don't agree with the tactic, it's important not to just paint soldiers who are Christians with the brush as being these 'religious crusaders'.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by jammies

I don't understand how someone can reconcile belief in Christ with a career in making weapons. I wouldn't have a problem with these "Christians" if they actually did what Christ preached.

I can understand wanting to believe in higher powers, but I can't accept that this is an excuse for hypocrisy. Does that make me intolerant? I suppose, if by "intolerant" you mean "unwilling to accept someone's explanation of their beliefs when it directly conflicts with the supposed inspiration for those beliefs."

I'm not trying to single you out, but this is one of the things that bugs me when people make arguments about religion.

They say things, like you just said, and point out the contradictions.
The contradiction is only with YOUR interpretation of what YOU THINK they believe.

There could be any number of reasons why building weapons fits with their belife system. They could believe that the war in Iraq is a justifyable war, and what you see as a contradiction could be completely within their system of beliefs. Or they could be huge hypocrites. That's the danger with using a wide bush.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

They say things, like you just said, and point out the contradictions.
The contradiction is only with YOUR interpretation of what YOU THINK they believe.

No, the contradiction is in what Christ SAYS and what they DO.

"Interpretation" is the issue, certainly, but not my interpretation, but theirs when they take a message of peace and turn into a justification for war. That's both hypocritical and evil from my viewpoint, and blasphemous to boot from the viewpoint of a Christian who actually cares what Jesus' message actually was, as opposed to what it has been distorted to say in the centuries since becoming the official religion of a warlike Roman Empire.

"Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” - does this sound like Jesus saying, "Blessed are the snipers, for they shall snuff out the enemy"?

[Azure]

You forget the part where Paul talks about the government and the responsibility it has. Even says they have the right to carry the sword.

I've always thought that the teachings of Christ applied to you on an individual basis. Turn the other cheek is a message to individuals and not to the government.

Is it fair to say that the military or the police are all going to hell because they are risking their lives in combat or out on the streets to protect us?

Is there such a thing as a Christian soldier? The world isn't black and white.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Azure

You forget the part where Paul talks about the government and the responsibility it has. Even says they have the right to carry the sword.

I've always thought that the teachings of Christ applied to you on an individual basis. Turn the other cheek is a message to individuals and not to the government.

Is it fair to say that the military or the police are all going to hell because they are risking their lives in combat or out on the streets to protect us?

Is there such a thing as a Christian soldier? The world isn't black and white.

Thats the problem with religious debate right there, the goalposts are moving in this sense because everyone who is religious has slightly different beliefs under a banner of whatever their religion is.

Its why I try to just fight the battle over a real issue, because the wide field discussion of religion is so confused over how people interpret it and how they live their particular beliefs.

This issue is so small in the scope of things, but we know its wrong what that company did and it should stop.

Now where have much more pressing things to attend to.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by jammies

No, the contradiction is in what Christ SAYS and what they DO.

"Interpretation" is the issue, certainly, but not my interpretation, but theirs when they take a message of peace and turn into a justification for war. That's both hypocritical and evil from my viewpoint, and blasphemous to boot from the viewpoint of a Christian who actually cares what Jesus' message actually was, as opposed to what it has been distorted to say in the centuries since becoming the official religion of a warlike Roman Empire.

"Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” - does this sound like Jesus saying, "Blessed are the snipers, for they shall snuff out the enemy"?

Fair enough, but the Roman Catholic Church has established rules about justifyable wars. Obviously killing is inherently wrong, but if it's to oppose agression/tyrany, then it's not necessarily considered a mortal sin.

See that's why I said your interpretation is causing the contradiction.

You may interperate a belief in Christ to mean, that there is no justification for waging war. There are several belief systems that are very different but still revolve around the teachings of Jesus, and I'd be willing to bet that the guys making these scopes adhere to this school of thought. As far as their concerned, they're not contradicting anything.

But you certainly may see a contradiction in their actions based on your interpretation of what you know about Christianity, or what you believe.

Now, whether of not you think the war in Iraq is a justifyable war is a totally different question.

What if this same guy was making rifle scopes in WWII to stop the Nazis?
Would it still be a contradiction for this guy to make weapons to stop what was undeniably an evil agressor?

The point I'm making is that you probably see a contradiction becasue you either think it's not justfiable to make weapons period, or that the war they're being used in isn't justifiable.

The dudes making the weapons, presumablly think that both are justifiable, so you precieve a contradiction based on your interpreation, but they don't.

Now it's a whole other story as to whether or not who believes what is justifiable, and yes, there is a chance that these guys are hypocrites, who are profiting against their professed beliefs, but that is definitely not certain.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Azure

You forget the part where Paul talks about the government and the responsibility it has. Even says they have the right to carry the sword.

You forget the part where Paul isn't Jesus. He said plenty of things which have no basis in Christ's teachings, and that they carry such weight despite this is one of the reasons "Christianity" can embrace paradoxes and hypocrisies so well.

Further, the rights and responsibilities of the government <> individual morality. Christians as conscientious objectors is understandable, "Christian warriors" should be, but unfortunately is not, an oxymoron.

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by Thor

Thats the problem with religious debate right there, the goalposts are moving in this sense because everyone who is religious has slightly different beliefs under a banner of whatever their religion is.

Its why I try to just fight the battle over a real issue, because the wide field discussion of religion is so confused over how people interpret it and how they live their particular beliefs.

This issue is so small in the scope of things, but we know its wrong what that company did and it should stop.

Now where have much more pressing things to attend to.

How are the goal posts moving? the context of Jammies argument is the interpretation among Christians at least that's what it looks like. If we talk about religion as a whole then yes it's a wide open field but in Christianity there is a great deal of support on how to interpret war, government/institutions and it's actually one topic among Christians where there is very little argument or debate.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

You may interperate a belief in Christ to mean, that there is no justification for waging war. There are several belief systems that are very different but still revolve around the teachings of Jesus, and I'd be willing to bet that the guys making these scopes adhere to this school of thought. As far as their concerned, they're not contradicting anything.

My entire argument is that they are WRONG to think this. You seem to be under the impression that "hypocrisy" is some kind of conscious evil they have chosen, and that I'm accusing them of deliberately acting against their beliefs. That is not what I am saying; what I am saying is that there is a fundamental contradiction between what they actually believe and what they SHOULD believe if they want to call themselves followers of Christ.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by jammies

You forget the part where Paul isn't Jesus. He said plenty of things which have no basis in Christ's teachings, and that they carry such weight despite this is one of the reasons "Christianity" can embrace paradoxes and hypocrisies so well.

Further, the rights and responsibilities of the government <> individual morality. Christians as conscientious objectors is understandable, "Christian warriors" should be, but unfortunately is not, an oxymoron.

You foget the part where Jesus said that Paul (the first Pope) was his representative on earth, and what he said on earth, Jesus would hold true in Heaven.

Think of it as a means to ammend the constituion when unforseen things come up.

Yes, I know that all the Athiests will now point out "Well if God knows everthing then there are no unforseen things". But that's a different debate about free will etc, so not part of this thread.