Canada's Education System May Not Be As Good As Some May Think

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by Azure

But then again, I enjoyed those books because they made sense. I could relate to the writing style, the questions and how they relate to me and my life. But Shakespeare always came across as a cheesy story written in a complex language. And often it was a cheesy love story.

It seems simply, basically true to me that Logic and Rhetoric are crucial at success in a huge number of fields. Logic is a primarily philosophical discipline and Rhetoric one usually taught by English departments, and for a reason. Shakespeare is an excellent way to teach basic skills in this, since his work has a suitable level of overall complexity for the high school level. His work is broad and contains easily discernable themes and ideas, and is perfect for teaching basic rhetoric and developing writing and communication skills. Moreover, his work is in itself an excellent example of style and communication. This is why reading the 'story' doesn't matter one bit when reading Shakespeare, because Shakespeare is all about the delivery. If a student is able to understand Shakespeare's style and form, they will learn a huge skill-set which will help them out in countless ways. Understanding what they're about doesn't mean a damn thing.

If I could give one reason for my being capable of a 3.93 GPA when taking not particularly easy courses, it would be high school Shakespeare.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Any kid in any high school in any year could have told you all of this on the spot any day of the week.

The curriculum that current students are taught is a joke. The education system wastes more time teaching kids about dividing complex fractional quadrilaterals (which they will never again use or see in life after the teachers chapter quiz) than we teach them about reading a map, being able to feed themselves or bartering on the price of a large purchase.

We spend so much time filling kids heads with math and history crap that they will never, ever use in real life that they have had no time being taught or learning real skills that you use on a daily basis. They don't remember the garbage being taught anyway and then they come out of high school knowing how to "kinda" use a calculator and how to not get caught smoking a joint outside the school smoke doors. It's sad and the q-tips that run the educational system are more clueless about it than the kids in class.

where in the hell did you get the idea that you have the right to speak for everyone's lives and what they will or won't use? What if the kid becomes a mathematician or historian? Yep, they'll never, ever use that 'crap' in their lives. Suuure.

According to people like you we should just teach all kids how to conform perrrfectly to corporate society or send them to trade school, then we have cash and we have people to fix and make the things we spend it on and we have the perfect world. Yay. Oh, yeah, keep a few folk in rural areas to farm for us. Oh crap, a complex mathematical issue just came up in all these surprisingly complex sociological functions we have! What are we going to do now?! Oh, let's see what people in the past did, maybe that'll help us! Wait, there are no historians?! Oh no, now we're really screwed!

No thought spared for intellect and, you know, personal choices. Not to mention you seem to think we live a couple millennia ago if you think crucial skills in life are map-reading, sustenance, and bargaining!

[V]

Originally Posted by pyramidsofmars

not to mention you seem to think we live a couple millennia ago if you think crucial skills in life are map-reading, sustenance, and bargaining!

[jammies]

Shakespeare is important if for no other reason than we shouldn't completely derive our shared cultural references from pop music, television shows and video games.

[troutman]

Shakespeare is the biggest reason a bunch of these graduates can't properly read or write.

How the HELL is someone supposed to learn proper grammar, sentence structure and the basics of writing(nevermind reading)...when Shakespeare and a bunch of other stupid books are rammed down their throats all year long?


Actually, children that learn second languages (immersion or bilingual program) generally do better in spelling and grammar in their own language. Studying other languages, or older forms of your own language, builds your literacy skills.

[LChoy]

Quick question, does the UofC still have a mandatory effective writing test? I remember how it was a test you had to write if your High School English grade was less than a B or something like that

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

yeah, I'd like to see the percentage of university-educated Canadians in the humanities who have low prose literacy levels. I'm betting it would be fairly close to ZERO.

It's absolutely pathetic that Management students and the like don't seem to even need to learn to write. But I'd say that's more a symptom of an intellectually bankrupt discipline (in the manner it's currently taught in) than a problem with Canada's education system at large. I know for a fact that Canadians who get good results in the Humanities and some social sciences are definitely able to stand proud among a global pool. As for the sciences, it depends on what they are doing.

Eh? I have a business degree and we wrote a lot of essays. Good writing was essential. And yes, we were docked marks for poor grammar and spelling. Passive voice was especially punished.

[Azure]

Our English teacher had a habit of taking our papers and basically rewriting the whole thing.

I remember one time I got a pretty decent mark on a final exam, and when I actually got the essay portion back the whole paper was full of red writing. I still pulled off an 85%, but considering how many mistakes she corrected I still don't know how.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Eh? I have a business degree and we wrote a lot of essays. Good writing was essential. And yes, we were docked marks for poor grammar and spelling. Passive voice was especially punished.

well, good for you. It's been my experience that many students in management and some social sciences are just atrocious writers. If you have a Bachelor of Commerce, that might explain it, they seem to be much better off.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

well, good for you. It's been my experience that many students in management and some social sciences are just atrocious writers. If you have a Bachelor of Commerce, that might explain it, they seem to be much better off.

Trust me, the absolute worst writers are comp sci students. Holy farko.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Azure

No, but a course on how to manage money, start a bank account, how credit cards work, saving accounts, etc, etc should be taken by every single student.

You know, stuff you use in 'real life.'



History is important, true.....but there are also problems with the course content in that subject as well.

Ummmm .... are parents expected to teach ANYTHING to their kids?

Maybe public schools should add a manners class as well?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

It's been my experience that many students in management and some social sciences are just atrocious writers.

The spelling talents of engineers never ceases to amaze me.

ex. looser, instead of loser

[Azure]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Ummmm .... are parents expected to teach ANYTHING to their kids?

Maybe public schools should add a manners class as well?

I see you're still sticking to your drive-by comments.

If parents are teaching their kids everything why the CALM class?

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Azure

I see you're still sticking to your drive-by comments.

If parents are teaching their kids everything why the CALM class?

Good ol' Azure, always looking for a hidden meaning in every post.

If you take another look, you'll see I never suggested parents ARE teaching their kids these skills, I asked whether it is fair to expect them to teach their own children some basic living skills. Or has our society handed over responsibility for raising children to our education system?

[Azure]

And again with the comments.

It is expected of parents to teach their kids certain things, but that doesn't mean those things can't be offered as a course in school as well.

CALM.

Career and Life Management. Pretty sure its a required class in high school.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

And again with the comments.

It is expected of parents to teach their kids certain things, but that doesn't mean those things can't be offered as a course in school as well.

CALM.

Career and Life Management. Pretty sure its a required class in high school.

Huh? Weren't you earlier talking about how they should develop a course on banking, credit cards and "real life stuff" while ditching all the "waste of time/stupid books, wrong history content" business?

Here you are pointing out that the "real life stuff" class already exists. Should it be expanded?

[Azure]

I took the CALM class in high school, and while it was pretty good I felt it wasn't indepth enough. Certain things could be expanded upon.

[bcb]

So we'll fix CALM class.
These suggestions are great. I'm now convinced even moderate discussion on CP could do a better job of reforming our education system than the government.

What else?

[Azure]

I have said it before but I think kids having access to certain courses through video conferencing is very important. We have the Supernet up and running already and there is no reason the rest of the technology can't be put into place in every single school(especially rural ones)....to give kids a bigger opportunity.

I was blessed with a math teacher that took it upon himself to teach physics even though he knew next to nothing about it and we ended up having a great class. Or a principal who took it upon himself to teach gym class despite having never done it before. And throughout all my years in school teachers always seemed to step-up when needed.

But not everyone has those chances.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by Azure

I have said it before but I think kids having access to certain courses through video conferencing is very important. We have the Supernet up and running already and there is no reason the rest of the technology can't be put into place in every single school(especially rural ones)....to give kids a bigger opportunity.

I was blessed with a math teacher that took it upon himself to teach physics even though he knew next to nothing about it and we ended up having a great class. Or a principal who took it upon himself to teach gym class despite having never done it before. And throughout all my years in school teachers always seemed to step-up when needed.

But not everyone has those chances.

Definitely important. I strongly believe a good teacher can generally teach anything.

I'm trained as a science teacher, but I'm teaching math this semester.