Canada's Education System May Not Be As Good As Some May Think

[Azure]

Originally Posted by fotze

I am enroilling my kid in the public system next week.

This elementary school has a radio station and podcasts. A lot has changed since I went to school.

Yeah, I heard they're doing more of that. Kids can just download the classes they missed and catch up that way.

Which is good, obviously. Now they just need to start doing it with video too.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Azure

No, but a course on how to manage money, start a bank account, how credit cards work, saving accounts, etc, etc should be taken by every single student.

You know, stuff you use in 'real life.'

I had a parent help me with that. Didn't other people have parents?

History is important, true.....but there are also problems with the course content in that subject as well.

Yes, we realize it doesn't jibe with your view history or something something.

Besides, high school chemistry is 100% BS, yet really it's the only way to start.

High school history is very superficial, but then again all high school courses are superficial, except for Math 31.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Good thing that isn't what I said.

What I actually said was that kids learn grammar from reading, writing and speaking. Reading Shakespeare is both enjoyable and useful, but of course doesn't mean much by itself--like almost anything else.

You're acting like reading Shakespeare is objectively enjoyable. It's not. That's all I'm saying.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Shazam

I had a parent help me with that. Didn't other people have parents?
Yes, we realize it doesn't jibe with your view history or something something.

Besides, high school chemistry is 100% BS, yet really it's the only way to start.

High school history is very superficial, but then again all high school courses are superficial, except for Math 31.

It shouldn't really be dependent on the parents should it?

And my complaints with what is taught in Social Studies has nothing to do with my view on history. Rather with the way students are taught.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Azure

It shouldn't really be dependent on the parents should it?

I got a bank account when I was 12. So did all (yes, all) of my friends. In fact, so did my enemies. By the time we were in high school, all, yes, all, even the complete farking dolts, had back accounts and knew a smidge or two about money.

My brother and sister, who went through the US system, had to take mandatory driving courses. Is that something you're okay with?

And my complaints with what is taught in Social Studies has nothing to do with my view on history. Rather with the way students are taught.

I had some pretty good Social Studies teachers. The main problem is that children's minds at that age have a hell of a time grasping the abstract and they're arrogant to boot.

[Azure]

Problem with a mandatory driving course is how do you teach it within the hours you're given? There are lots of Drivers Ed classes offered after school but not everyone has time for that.

Otherwise no I don't really have a problem with it.

And it doesn't really matter whether or not you had a bank account at 12. Kids struggle with financial issues once they're on their own. It would help to offer them more help in that area.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Any kid in any high school in any year could have told you all of this on the spot any day of the week.

The curriculum that current students are taught is a joke. The education system wastes more time teaching kids about dividing complex fractional quadrilaterals (which they will never again use or see in life after the teachers chapter quiz) than we teach them about reading a map, being able to feed themselves or bartering on the price of a large purchase.

We spend so much time filling kids heads with math and history crap that they will never, ever use in real life that they have had no time being taught or learning real skills that you use on a daily basis. They don't remember the garbage being taught anyway and then they come out of high school knowing how to "kinda" use a calculator and how to not get caught smoking a joint outside the school smoke doors. It's sad and the q-tips that run the educational system are more clueless about it than the kids in class.

This sounds like the rant of a high school dropout who hasn't quite taken the plunge yet. Don't do it! Stay in school.

And all this emphasis on "stuff they use on a daily basis". Who needs to be taught these things? Haggling over big purchases? Eating? Writing a cheque? Normal people pick up these skills along the way.

There's a name for people who don't know anything but the basics -- the name is "stupid". We'll quickly be a society of really stupid people if we stop teaching people how to think.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Azure

Problem with a mandatory driving course is how do you teach it within the hours you're given? There are lots of Drivers Ed classes offered after school but not everyone has time for that.

They somehow managed.

And it doesn't really matter whether or not you had a bank account at 12. Kids struggle with financial issues once they're on their own. It would help to offer them more help in that area.

Sorry, you can't teach people to spend money wisely.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by RyZ

The curriculum that current students are taught is a joke. The education system wastes more time teaching kids about dividing complex fractional quadrilaterals (which they will never again use or see in life after the teachers chapter quiz) than we teach them about reading a map, being able to feed themselves or bartering on the price of a large purchase.

We spend so much time filling kids heads with math and history crap that they will never, ever use in real life that they have had no time being taught or learning real skills that you use on a daily basis. They don't remember the garbage being taught anyway and then they come out of high school knowing how to "kinda" use a calculator and how to not get caught smoking a joint outside the school smoke doors. It's sad and the q-tips that run the educational system are more clueless about it than the kids in class.

I agree with Shazam, Phanuthier, etc. that the math, history and other subjects are actually important. You'd be surprised how many careers use what you learn in math and science (not just careers in science and engineering). Sure, not everyone will use these skills - if you work at McDonald's you probably don't need to know much more than how to add up change - but if you don't learn them in school it closes a lot of doors for later on, and I don't think you want to be closing any more doors than you need to before you even finish high school. Plus, if these subjects are taught properly, a lot of the benefit comes from learning new ways of thinking and how to think critically (something that doesn't really come naturally to most people).

Maybe there does need to be more time spent on skills like how to balance your budget - but there wasn't really any of that sort of stuff when I was in school, and I picked it up on my own easily enough. Maybe some more math courses would help people figure out how much trouble they'll be in if interest rates go up if they have too big of a mortgage.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

Maybe there does need to be more time spent on skills like how to balance your budget - but there wasn't really any of that sort of stuff when I was in school, and I picked it up on my own easily enough. Maybe some more math courses would help people figure out how much trouble they'll be in if interest rates go up if they have too big of a mortgage.

I may be a bit ruthless when I say this, but if things like balancing a simple budget (like your allowence), figuring out how to read a map without help, etc can't be done on your own... its a bit Darwinian...

A mortgage, a bank account... you can go to a bank and ask if you don't know. Thats what they're there for.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by WilsonFourTwo

Sorry - but that's a pretty lame excuse.

I'll clarify a best practice for you, on behalf of parents, please feel free to share with coworkers:

"If the student is not ready to be promoted to the next grade level, don't allow it to happen"

I feel bad for teachers....they've been forced in becoming babysitters before educators. That said, there sure is a lot of buck-passing in the education system. And 'bcb', before you argue with that, re-read what you wrote:

"Sorry, to clarify, it probably isn't a law. (You can read the Alberta School Act) to find out. It's more convention, based upon so called 'best practice' in education circles."

Translated:

1. Go research my point for me, I can't be bothered.
2. Although I'm empowered to do the right thing, my peer group frowns on it.

Thank you for providing me with your solution for best practice. For the third time, at the elementary level, it is incredibly difficult to hold back students. But yeah, you're right, we're all just lazy.

[V]

Originally Posted by WilsonFourTwo

Point 1: Most companies do have 'Chair Warmers', you're absolutely right. They also tend to get worse remuneration and fewer promotions. Pay in the private sector is (almost) never directly linked to years of service.

You're comparing a union position to a non-union position. I work with plenty of chair warmers, and they most definitely get promotions based upon years of service and not on performance.

There are far better ways to determine how much a teacher should be paid, but the union would never allow it.

[bcb]

Maybe we can agree on one point: Everybody thinks some parts of the curriculum are more important to them than others. Just because some students think Shakespeare is stupid, doesn't make them any more right than other students who thinks math is stupid because they're math-phobic.

But again, I must ask: How does any of this have to do with vouchers or gutting the public system?

BTW, one area of improvement for the public system that would appeal to genuine conservatives, would involve more partnerships between individual schools and large corporations. I'm not suggesting we rename schools after companies, but if schools develop relationships with companies, particularly in this province, the government may actually end up saving money, while improving the system, while also improving the stature of these companies.

[V]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Any kid in any high school in any year could have told you all of this on the spot any day of the week.

The curriculum that current students are taught is a joke. The education system wastes more time teaching kids about dividing complex fractional quadrilaterals (which they will never again use or see in life after the teachers chapter quiz) than we teach them about reading a map, being able to feed themselves or bartering on the price of a large purchase.

We spend so much time filling kids heads with math and history crap that they will never, ever use in real life that they have had no time being taught or learning real skills that you use on a daily basis. They don't remember the garbage being taught anyway and then they come out of high school knowing how to "kinda" use a calculator and how to not get caught smoking a joint outside the school smoke doors. It's sad and the q-tips that run the educational system are more clueless about it than the kids in class.

My education in junior high / high school prepared me a lot more for life than my undergrad prepared me for my engineering career. I think high school is fine for that sort of thing. Of course, I attended a private school, so it was inherently better...

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by Azure

No, but a course on how to manage money, start a bank account, how credit cards work, saving accounts, etc, etc should be taken by every single student.

History is important, true.....but there are also problems with the course content in that subject as well.

Our students go to Mount Royal College in Grade 9 for a day of this, not to mention CALM classes in high school. The day we spend at Mount Royal is good in that it teaches the kids one thing: that their expectations for how their life will look can not be met with the jobs they'd get without worrying about their education. I'm not saying you have to be well-educated to have a good job; I'm saying 14 year olds have no idea how 'life' works. As such, it's my opinion that teaching kids stuff like this is just not useful. They don't care because they don't understand it and also because they are not living it at that moment. They don't care about credit cards because they don't have one, and they don't care about financial management because they don't have bills. I'd liken it to teaching people how to use computers without a computer in front of them. I get what you are saying though: knowing these things is important, but it's something I think could only effectively be learned through experience or through role modeling from parents.

As for history, it's my opinion that it is important for us all to know where we have been. Social Studies could easily be the most important course that students learn, but a lot of the curriculum is seriously flawed. A lot of the Grade 9 curriculum is about how the federal government works, how to vote, political parties, and such. Why do we teach this to 14 year olds? They're not going to vote for at least 4 years. The stuff that they loved - the little bit of it - was about the youth justice system (very good thing to teach 14 year olds about) and commercialism. My perfect 9th grade Social Studies program would involve more things like this ... teaching students about things in society that directly affect them and their lives.

There's also an unfortunate trend in curricula where they are trying to jam more content into a program when they should be doing the exact opposite ... less "mandatory" learning could lead to better opportunities for students to explore interests, and also to learn how to think critically, research, and become those 'well-rounded citizens' we all want to see. I try to teach as few facts as I can to my classes because they are all so accessible online that there is no point.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by First Lady

Having the $$$ (already allocated) follow the student (voucher system) does not pay for private schooling. They still have to pay the additional fees.

A voucher system brings in an element of competition. Schools would have to excel to attract the students in order to get funding. I know that sounds a bit scary, but it would actually create a stronger public system.

We would actually see schools start to emerge to address the true needs of students. We would see more Dr. Oakleys (literacy immersion) or James Fowlers (trade development). It would open the door to all sorts of possibilities; arts schools, music, etc.

No, this wouldn't save money (though the potential is there), but it absolutely will make the system more effective and student outcomes would be higher.

Or it would create an insane level of ghettoisation. One school develops a good reputation, thus attracting the best students. The best students attract the best teachers. The best teachers attract the best students. And every other school loses its best and brightest.

Originally Posted by bcb

Maybe I'm wrong, but honestly, I feel the whole point of this "school choice" movement is more social policy than fiscal, based on the notion of attracting religious voters who don't like their kids being "indoctrinated" by the secular state.

Agreed... more parents aren't objecting to what their children aren't learning, but rather to what they are. And I don't support funding the the propagation of ignorance, nevermind lies.

Originally Posted by First Lady

Sounds good to me. Same should go for seniors.

Yeah, because seniors don't benefit at all from having an educated society around them, they shouldn't contribute to it. Come on.

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

- grade 9 math, we were doing area and perimeter and stuff. On one of my quiz's, we were given a rectangle with a length of 7cm and a width of 6cm. What is the area? I put 42cm^2. I got 2/7 on that question. Why? because I was supposed to first draw a picture of the rect, list the information, label the rect, write the formula, write out my calculation then give the result. Seriously, no joke.

Haha, I still don't know where I lost 5% on the Math Grade 12 provincial, seing as I stored my answers on my calculator and checked them against the right answers after the test was over.

Not nearly as bad the English diploma exam though. One of my friends had his essay rescored and it went up 24%. Yeah, here's the grade you'll be using to apply to universities and scholarships + or - 4% or so (IIRC the essay is about 30% of 50% of your mark). Gee thanks!

[Flamesguy_SJ]

Originally Posted by bcb

Maybe we can agree on one point: Everybody thinks some parts of the curriculum are more important to them than others. Just because some students think Shakespeare is stupid, doesn't make them any more right than other students who thinks math is stupid because they're math-phobic.

But again, I must ask: How does any of this have to do with vouchers or gutting the public system?

BTW, one area of improvement for the public system that would appeal to genuine conservatives, would involve more partnerships between individual schools and large corporations. I'm not suggesting we rename schools after companies, but if schools develop relationships with companies, particularly in this province, the government may actually end up saving money, while improving the system, while also improving the stature of these companies.

I'm not really an expert in education policy in my home province (New Brunswick), but this has been a venture that more and more elementary schools seem to be involved in, and it seems to be doing a lot of good. Obviously, being in Saint John, Irving is a big sponsor for most of the schools, and the high schools are always well-looked after.

There is a very fine line that a company like Irving (whether it be Oil or JD) has to tread, though. I think the biggest fear of these sorts of partnerships is that they might end up becoming super-sponsored, like a hockey game where every powerplay or penalty kill or shot on goal is "brought to you by" such and such a company, sort of like "and Mrs. Johnson's 3rd grade Social Studies class is brought to you by Irving Oil Ltd!"

[bcb]

Originally Posted by Flamesguy_SJ

I'm not really an expert in education policy in my home province (New Brunswick), but this has been a venture that more and more elementary schools seem to be involved in, and it seems to be doing a lot of good. Obviously, being in Saint John, Irving is a big sponsor for most of the schools, and the high schools are always well-looked after.

There is a very fine line that a company like Irving (whether it be Oil or JD) has to tread, though. I think the biggest fear of these sorts of partnerships is that they might end up becoming super-sponsored, like a hockey game where every powerplay or penalty kill or shot on goal is "brought to you by" such and such a company, sort of like "and Mrs. Johnson's 3rd grade Social Studies class is brought to you by Irving Oil Ltd!"

I am currently offering naming rights for homework checks, science labs and exam review

[PyramidsofMars]

yeah, I'd like to see the percentage of university-educated Canadians in the humanities who have low prose literacy levels. I'm betting it would be fairly close to ZERO.

It's absolutely pathetic that Management students and the like don't seem to even need to learn to write. But I'd say that's more a symptom of an intellectually bankrupt discipline (in the manner it's currently taught in) than a problem with Canada's education system at large. I know for a fact that Canadians who get good results in the Humanities and some social sciences are definitely able to stand proud among a global pool. As for the sciences, it depends on what they are doing.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by Azure

Shakespeare is the biggest reason a bunch of these graduates can't properly read or write.

How the HELL is someone supposed to learn proper grammar, sentence structure and the basics of writing(nevermind reading)...when Shakespeare and a bunch of other stupid books are rammed down their throats all year long?

Is this a joke?