Israel admits harvesting organs from Palestinians who didn't need them any more

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

Universities, good ones anyway, provide an education on a vast range of topics. It is up to the student to understand and utilize the discussions (a good university presents and discusses, it does not teach- trade schools and technical colleges are for that, and certainly lead to honorable and important things in life) and interpret them. No university teaches that Israel is wrong. Politics classes and Philosophy classes and such present a HUGE range of opinions, they do not pick a favored one. Unless the professor is absolutely terrible at their job, they will always make it clear that they are presenting their opinion- if they have one- on an issue, before discussing it in a biased manner.

There are just as many conservatives and moderates on university campuses as lefties, and frankly, the 'leftist university student' cliche has grown incredibly tiresome.

I think I was not clear on the university point - schools seem to be infiltrated with 'activist' groups that are hellbent on accusing Israel of genocide, ethnic cleansing and other outlandish lies. When someone uses these terms they have been clearly caught up in this mess. If you read through this thread you can see some of the hatespeak comes out in posts, which to me means the groups have an active member posting. Ever hear of Apartheid week? It is absolutely disgusting...not that I mind freedom of speech, what I am disgusted about is that fools buy this nonsense.

On the subject of Israel itself, in hindsight some choices the nation made may not have been the best, but they are in quite the situation that is completely alien to a typical Canadian. The unfortunate part is the fact that average citizens in Israel are becoming 'done' with the issue which makes violent Israeli IDF responses more likely.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Remaining neutral in my opinion is wrong...one side uses suicide bombers and has no problem murdering anyone. How can anyone remain neutral on this?

The other side causes mass civilian casualties with its military actions (far more civilian casualties than the Israelis suffer), and continues to seek more and more land and settlements. I am aware that it is difficult for the Israelis to destroy militants because they, like the cowards they are, hole up in civilian houses in civilian areas, but that does not alter the suffering the Palestinians go through.

My father's family is mostly Arab-Israeli, but with a few Palestinians who couldn't get into Israel. None of these people hate Jews or want violence. All of them constantly feel oppressed and dislike their lives. Look, I'm aware of the sociopolitical history. I am not in any way suggesting the Israeli state has 'no right to exist' or whatever. But I am not blind, and in fact am personally affected through family by the state most Palestinians live in, even those not in refugee camps and such. You have to understand, no matter how much you argue the point that there was no Palestine, that the land was not owned by the people, in actual effect what you have is a people whose immediate ancestors in many cases were driven out of their homes, their land taken away, and their success and often education meaning absolutely nothing in the aftermath. Did the Arabs invite much of the aggression? Yes. The sad reality is that 'the Arabs' does not cover the innocent victims of the whole thing.

[CaptainCrunch]

Bottom line is that frankly Israel doesn't have a negotiating partner when it comes to the Hamas run side of things. Hamas might call for a cease fire but those smuggling tunnels aren't built to smuggle in Candy. Cease fire to Hamas means re-arm and recruit.

Israel is in a bad spot, they're basically surrounded by terrorist groups intent on their destruction, they're surrounded by nations that in the past have invaded and attacked freely.

People wonder why Israel is militarily aggressive, it comes down to the environment they are in.

The muslim nations in the region have done more to fail the Palestinians using their citizens as political tools instead of following their religions often admirable stance on charity.

Absolutely the settlement issue is all on Israel.

The biggest annoyance to me is the one sided condemnation of Israel, the cry's for war crimes are one sided, but I question this since Hamas forms a legitimate government should they not also be facing the same calls.

The launching of rockets from Hamas against civilians can no longer be considered a terrorist action since Hamas is a elected government, its a war crime and a act of war by a supposedly legitimate government. The use of suicide bombers by Hamas is no longer a terrorist action, it should be considered a war crime and a act of war. The firing of rockets from schools and hospitals by Hamas members is a crime by Hamas against their own civilians.

There are repugnant actions , however I don't recall Israel publicly calling for the annihilation of Palestine, but Hamas has the destruction of Israel and the murder of its people in its own part charter.

With the weapons at their command Israel could annihilate all of the Palestinian areas in a few days, but they don't do that, they do make attempts to avoid wholesale civilian slaughter. Israel does make an attempt at killing Hamas leadership, but I'm not going to cry about that.

People keep calling the use of white phosphorus as a war crime, however the use of white phosphorus in artillary shells designed to create a smoke screen for infantry attacks is not a war crime. Do I like the use of it in tight city areas? Not really, but its a standard tactic in any military on the planet.

Until Hamas is removed from power and existence the people of Palestine are going to suffer and die, thats the sad reality when you elect a death cult into power that's willing to use their own people's deaths to a political end and don't care about the slaughter that they've created because they have a twisted and sick vision of gods approval.

I doubt they'll ever go away, and therefore I doubt that there will ever be peace in that region.

[DementedReality]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I doubt they'll ever go away, and therefore I doubt that there will ever be peace in that region.

i like your post ... needs more than just a thanks!

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

The other side causes mass civilian casualties with its military actions (far more civilian casualties than the Israelis suffer), and continues to seek more and more land and settlements. I am aware that it is difficult for the Israelis to destroy militants because they, like the cowards they are, hole up in civilian houses in civilian areas, but that does not alter the suffering the Palestinians go through.

What do you call mass civilian casualties? Do you mean the IDF causes this? The cause is the use of human shields. Launching rockets from schools or hiding in civilian areas leads to civilian deaths. That is not the IDF's fault, and in fact the IDF minimizes civilian casualties by putting troops on the ground. Do you think for a second Canadian or US or any other military on the planet goes through what the IDF goes through? Where do you get that there should be an equal number of casualties? The Israeli government has infrastructure in place to save lives; Hamas has 'infrastructure' in place to cause death.

I am curious, what is wrong with the settlements? Build up on unoccupied land is the only bargaining chip Israel has...the longer it takes to negotiate, the more land will be settled by Jews. If the Palestinians want it to stop, simply get rid of Hamas and start negotiating. This is clearly not what is creating suicide bombers and I doubt there is any connection.

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

My father's family is mostly Arab-Israeli, but with a few Palestinians who couldn't get into Israel. None of these people hate Jews or want violence. All of them constantly feel oppressed and dislike their lives. Look, I'm aware of the sociopolitical history. I am not in any way suggesting the Israeli state has 'no right to exist' or whatever. But I am not blind, and in fact am personally affected through family by the state most Palestinians live in, even those not in refugee camps and such. You have to understand, no matter how much you argue the point that there was no Palestine, that the land was not owned by the people, in actual effect what you have is a people whose immediate ancestors in many cases were driven out of their homes, their land taken away, and their success and often education meaning absolutely nothing in the aftermath. Did the Arabs invite much of the aggression? Yes. The sad reality is that 'the Arabs' does not cover the innocent victims of the whole thing.

When good people do nothing, evil prevails. Had Palestinians felt this way, there would be peace already, they cannot allow another generation to be bullied by homicidal zealots.

I have never argued about who was there first or anything like that. My point is simple: The country is the way it is right now, and the people have to figure out a way to make it work. I do not buy the argument though that people were driven out of their homes. From what I understand, there were a few instances of this, but on the larger scale this was not the case. The refugee argument is that in a nutshell: Jews did not force people out of the country (except for small isolated incidents), yet more jews were forced out of Arab nations.. A few massive wars resulted in people coming and going, but those that stayed are happy citizens. Many lies are now repeated as truth, but here is my view:
Sure people left, most simply because of anticipation of Arab liberation, or expulsion of Jews from Arab states. But if you are going to talk about right of return and compensation, then you need to look at international precedents. What the precedents will show is that Israel is doing exactly what it should be doing - nothing, since that is what the victor has always done. The question is why aren't Palestinian allies helping? I certainly do not have a solution for what to do for those that lost everything, but are Japanese suing the US for what happened to their houses in Hiroshima? What took place in Israel clearly was a far gentler 'expulsion' then the sacking of London or what took place over Germany - the difference is the potential violence of the terrorist groups that now exist and the fact that any let down in security results in bombs going off in restaurants. For this reason alone I agree with what Israel is doing, and unfortunately normal people like your family wind up suffering.

I do prefer debating with you though, since I am not hearing the hateful catch phrases some others throw around.