Israel admits harvesting organs from Palestinians who didn't need them any more

[T@T]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Seems like Israelis are just as guilty as the Palestinians in hating the enemy.

I get it(it's all over your posts) you don't like Jews. When the Israelis start strapping belt bombs to their 14 year old kids to blow up 100 innocent Palestinians I'll start agreeing with you. Until that time I'll choose to take the Jews side 100%. The day I start backing some ######ed radical terrorist group is the day I put a bullet in my own head!

Oh poor Palestinians, the Jews took their land when in-fact they never owned it in the first place. Muslims don't want to share land and space with the Jews they want them exterminated from the face of the earth.

[DementedReality]

nm

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by T@T

I get it(it's all over your posts) you don't like Jews. When the Israelis start strapping belt bombs to their 14 year old kids to blow up 100 innocent Palestinians I'll start agreeing with you. Until that time I'll choose to take the Jews side 100%. The day I start backing some ######ed radical terrorist group is the day I put a bullet in my own head!

Oh poor Palestinians, the Jews took their land when in-fact they never owned it in the first place. Muslims don't want to share land and space with the Jews they want them exterminated from the face of the earth.

How did you come to both those conclusions? Seems that anyone that is critical of Israel's policies is automatically labelled as an antisemite. So because you claim that Palestinians never owned the land they lived in then that makes it true? Show me evidence that the commonly accepted idea that arabs owned the majority of the land that is now known as Israel is false.

I am sure you have seen this image before. But just to refresh your memory here:


Just because the land was not an independent nation called Palestine, it does not mean that the land was not owned by Palestinians. That is as absurd as saying that land in Alberta is not owned by Albertans because there was never an independent nation called Alberta.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by T@T

I'll choose to take the Jews side 100%.

This is what I don't get.

No one in their right mind could say either side is 100% right and the other 100% wrong. Innocents die needlessly on both sides, excesses and even atrocities are committed by both sides (if you don't applies to the Israeli side T@T, you can confirm this directly with Israeli sources).

Talk about over simplifying things.

I suppose you would have supported Canada's creation of Japanese internment camps during WWII? You seem to paint all Gazan's or Palestinians with the same brush. They're all guilty, right? Just like all the Japanese were thought to have been.

[_Q_]

It may interest you that the first terrorist attack in the history of the Middle East was committed by Irgun, a Jewish terrorist organization. On July 1946 (during the British Mandate of Palestine), Irgun detonated 350kg of explosives in the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

The building contained the British military command and their Criminal Investigation Division.[7] Security analyst Bruce Hoffman has written that the "Hotel housed the nerve centre of British rule in Palestine".[8] Specifically, the Irgun aimed at destroying the southern wing of the hotel, which housed the Mandate's intelligence records about Irgun, the Hagana, Lehi, and other Jewish paramilitary groups.[6]

91 people were killed, most of them being staff of the hotel or Secretariat: 21 were first-rank government officials; 49 were second-rank clerks, typists and messengers, junior members of the Secretariat, employees of the hotel and canteen workers; 13 were soldiers; 3 policemen; and 5 were members of the public. By nationality, there were 41 Arabs, 28 British citizens, 17 Palestinian Jews, 2 Armenians, 1 Russian, 1 Greek and 1 Egyptian. 46 people were injured.[4][5] Some of the deaths and injuries occurred in the road outside the hotel and in adjacent buildings. No identifiable traces were found of thirteen of those killed.[4] One of the dead was Yulius Jacobs, an Irgun sympathizer.[13]

hmmm.... but I guess only Muslims are savage murderers. Only Muslims teach their children to kill.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Show me evidence that the commonly accepted idea that arabs owned the majority of the land that is now known as Israel is false.

That is not a commonly accepted idea - it is leftist propaganda. Here is some rightist propaganda for you:

Again note - The term "Palestine" is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C.E., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what are now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century C.E., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from this Latin name.3


AND -"Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:

We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.6

In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: "There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."7

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...myths/mf1.html

I am sure you have seen this image before. But just to refresh your memory here:

Yes, I have seen the image before but what the pictures leave out says just as much as what they show. There should be a third colour there, not just green & white - like black showing where there was no one. That would be most of the Negev, the desert. The pic would also be more accurate if where the first image says "Palestine" is said "Ottoman Empire" or "British Mandate Palestine". Most of that green in the first image was either empty desert or owned by Syrian landlords who willing sold their parcels to Jewish interests in the early 20th century.

Just because the land was not an independent nation called Palestine, it does not mean that the land was not owned by Palestinians.

Well, according to Ottoman Empire records a lot of that land was owned by wealthy Ottomans living in Damascus, as noted above.

That is as absurd as saying that land in Alberta is not owned by Albertans because there was never an independent nation called Alberta.

Canada did say that to the Blackfoot, the Cree, etc., but that is a whole different argument.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Show me evidence that the commonly accepted idea that arabs owned the majority of the land that is now known as Israel is false.

I am sure you have seen this image before. But just to refresh your memory here:


Just because the land was not an independent nation called Palestine, it does not mean that the land was not owned by Palestinians. That is as absurd as saying that land in Alberta is not owned by Albertans because there was never an independent nation called Alberta.

How about you show where the Palestinians or Arabs owned that land!

It's commonly known that native Indians owned Canada as well...I don't see them strapping bombs on their kids to get back what they think was theirs.

Originally Posted by longsuffering

This is what I don't get.

No one in their right mind could say either side is 100% right and the other 100% wrong. Innocents die needlessly on both sides, excesses and even atrocities are committed by both sides (if you don't applies to the Israeli side T@T, you can confirm this directly with Israeli sources).

Talk about over simplifying things.

I suppose you would have supported Canada's creation of Japanese internment camps during WWII? You seem to paint all Gazan's or Palestinians with the same brush. They're all guilty, right? Just like all the Japanese were thought to have been.

I can not and will not support terrorism, Is Israel perfect in the ways their fighting this war..NO. But they don't teach their kids at 4 years old "hate" at all cost and they don't strap bombs on them...These Muslim radicals are nothing but f***ing animals. When I see 8 year olds running down the streets with AK-47's singing death to Israel and death to America it makes me sick.

All in the name of this beautiful thing we call religion.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by _Q_

It may interest you that the first terrorist attack in the history of the Middle East was committed by Irgun, a Jewish terrorist organization. On July 1946 (during the British Mandate of Palestine), Irgun detonated 350kg of explosives in the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
hmmm.... but I guess only Muslims are savage murderers. Only Muslims teach their children to kill.

Well, that incident did indeed happen (though I caution you using wikipedia as a source on this board) it was far from the first terrorist attack in the history of the mid-east. Persians, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Jewish Zealots, Ottomans - all used terrorist type tactics through history.

In modern terms there is a leat this one that pre-dates 1946:

In April 1936, a new outbreak of Arab attacks on Jews was instigated by a Syrian guerrilla named Fawzi alQawukji, the commander of the Arab Liberation Army. By November, when the British finally sent a new commission headed by Lord Peel to investigate, 89 Jews had been killed and more than 300 wounded.23

But we can play the "My massacre versus your massacre" game all day.
There is no point in it and there is definitely no peace in it.

[_Q_]

Sorry I don't know how to imbed video, but here's a couple in response to T@T's idea that only Muslim Children are taught to hate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqcSt...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR0fuX8w4XY

Some of the videos are crappy quality, but they get the point across.

The difference between Israeli and Palestinian children is when each of them turns 18, the Israeli child has joining a proper military to look forward to in order to facilitate his or her murder of Palestinians. The Palestinian only has joining paramilitary organizations to look forward to.

Both sides passionately hate each other.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Both sides passionately hate each other.

I would say that both sides have factions that vehemently hate each other.
There are many on both sides who would be happy to live together in peace and work together to that end.

One example of a group trying to break the tit-for-tat arguing and cycle is the group of parents who have lost children to terrorist attacks - whether as victims or as perpetrators. (This is the group that received the proceeds from the recent Leonard Cohen concert.)

We could go back and forth on who hates who more well into next year. They are trying to move beyond it.

With that I must sign off - Shabbat Shalom.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

I would say that both sides have factions that vehemently hate each other.
There are many on both sides who would be happy to live together in peace and work together to that end.

One example of a group trying to break the tit-for-tat arguing and cycle is the group of parents who have lost children to terrorist attacks - whether as victims or as perpetrators. (This is the group that received the proceeds from the recent Leonard Cohen concert.)

We could go back and forth on who hates who more well into next year. They are trying to move beyond it.

With that I must sign off - Shabbat Shalom.

I think this 6 page thread proves how difficult it is to lay blame on one side or another. Neither side is 100% innocent. I do hope for the sake of the region that groups like the one you mentioned can accomplish their intended goals.

Have a good Shabbat and Salam 'Alaykom to you too.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I think this 6 page thread proves how difficult it is to lay blame on one side or another. Neither side is 100% innocent. I do hope for the sake of the region that groups like the one you mentioned can accomplish their intended goals.

Have a good Shabbat and Salam 'Alaykom to you too.

There is blame on both sides, and I think many if not most Israelis probably acknowledge that. Most people I know in real life and on the internet who discuss this situation and support the Israeli side admit that certain policies have been counter active to progress. Israeli society and culture supports debate on these issues, which is not something the Palestinian side does a lot.

I used to know a Palestinian Canadian from Ottawa and he was more forgiving of Israel than I expected. He told me about how Hamas forbids people and community leaders from cooperating with Israel on any matters, and they use threats to ensure it. He also said that they don't allow Palestinians to accept compensation for damages to their property caused by Israel.

So while Israel might be on the hook for some of the blame, there are elements in Israel that also try to build bridges and it is met with opposition from Palestinians.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

How did you come to both those conclusions? Seems that anyone that is critical of Israel's policies is automatically labelled as an antisemite. So because you claim that Palestinians never owned the land they lived in then that makes it true? Show me evidence that the commonly accepted idea that arabs owned the majority of the land that is now known as Israel is false.

I am sure you have seen this image before. But just to refresh your memory here:


.

The problem with that image is that all 4 pictures show different things. The first shows Jewish settlements. The secon the boundaries given by Britain, a boundary that Israel accepted but not the arabs. The third the boundaries after the 1949 war. The fourth shows the areas under control of the Palestinian authority.

I think people use this series of different maps to suggest the arab control is shrinking. If anything the fourth map shows that Palestinian control is growing. At no point in history have the Palestinian people ever had political control over any land prior to that.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I think this 6 page thread proves how difficult it is to lay blame on one side or another. Neither side is 100% innocent. I do hope for the sake of the region that groups like the one you mentioned can accomplish their intended goals.

Have a good Shabbat and Salam 'Alaykom to you too.

I think this six page thread proves how some people, such as yourself, try to promote a terrorist group over a sovereign nation. I cannot believe someone would support a terrorist group, but people like you are all too common, especially in our universities. Most of what you have said is total lies that you either know is false, or have fallen for the propaganda that others are promoting. You make no attempt at responding to points made EVER.

Sure, there are hateful people in Israel just like any other country, but those in the military are doing what they can to prevent civilian casualties. Your claim that they look forward to murdering is completely out to lunch. A solider in Israel knows that if they don't report, and the soldier next to them does not report, then Hamas will walk right on over and KILL EVERYONE.

The average person on the street in Israel wants peace, and of course they are in a constant state of war and paranoia that has now caused problems within their own citizenry. You can thank terrorists for that. The same thing would happen in Canada if missiles started flying.

If Hamas had any motivation for peace, it would be there ALREADY since Israel is a willing partner. Your task in this thread is to bash Israel, pure and simple. Why don't you give us a little background and explain why you are so passionate about this?

Oh yeah, the reason the Palestinians do not have bomb shelters or bunkers to protect the citizens is because Hamas does not allow them.

[_Q_]

Nage, I have responded to your posts. You either keep telling me it is propoganda, or you call me antisemitic. Typical responses from Israel supporters.

I cannot believe someone would support a terrorist group, but people like you are all too common, especially in our universities.

Yes... Damn all those university educated students to hell, they will be the downfall of our society.

I have shown you videos and statistics that show you that there are people in Israel (a great deal of them actually) that would want nothing more than to make all the Arabs go away. If that's not racism, then I don't know what is. Yet you fail to acknowledge that. But I guess the only racism that is worth mentioning is when it is directed towards Jews. In your mind, all Arabs, or Muslims in general, since it seems you don't have the brain capacity to differentiate the two, are blood thirsty war mongers that want to exterminate Jews and need to be all rounded up killed in order to protect the poor Jews. In your mind every act of violence that Israel has perpetrated is justified because they have a nation, and Palestinians don't.

Yes I am one of those University educated professionals that you seem to hate if you are wondering.

I have said time and time again that I do not support Hamas, but I can see why people in Gaza would support them. Israel left Gaza because of the acts of violence they have directed towards Israel in the same way they left Southern Lebanon because of the attacks by Hizballah. They keep building settlements and squeezing Palestinians out of the West Bank, even thought they generally support Fatah, have not attacked Israel for a number of years now and generally stay low key compared to their brothers in Gaza. Now I know what you will do, you will point out stats about how a Palestinian attacked an Israeli settler in the West Bank and call him a terrorist and then somehow try to tell me that the West Bank is more violent than Gaza. On second thought, I don't think your brain functions that way, you will probably just call me antisemitic and a terrorist sympathizer since you have nothing else to say.

I personally can't believe anyone would support Israel. I can not see how anyone can convince themselves that European Jews belong anywhere in the Middle East. It's as absurd as white people claiming that South Africa is rightfully theirs.

[bcb]

I think this six page thread proves how some people, such as yourself, try to promote a terrorist group over a sovereign nation. I cannot believe someone would support a terrorist group, but people like you are all too common, especially in our universities. Most of what you have said is total lies that you either know is false, or have fallen for the propaganda that others are promoting. You make no attempt at responding to points made EVER.

It seems that the mere existence of the State of Israel is so offensive to some here, that the original post (re: organ harvesting), a scandal that could have affected any country, has come down to whether one democratic nation has a right to exist.

Look at any thread on the Middle East, here, or on any other message board. It always comes down to the boneheaded catch phrases such as "ethnic cleansing", "illegal settlements" or "apartheid".

Anyone with an ounce of rationality would understand Israel's plight, but they don't. Why? Some people don't like Jews. Sad, but true.

[bcb]

Yes... Damn all those university educated students to hell, they will be the downfall of our society.

"Educated" is putting it too kindly, I'm afraid.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Why is it always antisemitism to criticize Israel. I think most people that disagree with Israel's policies don't actually hate Jews, but hate the genocide that is happening. The way I see it, Israel is a modern day apartheid South Africa that happens to be majority Jewish.

genocide is a bit much, dontcha think?

The way I see it, anyone who has done much research on the conflict should know that both sides have more than their fair share of bigots, unfortunately few pacifists, and justifiable and unjustifiable concerns, needs, wants, and even actions. That may sound like a diplomatic way of stating it, but contrary to many other conflicts, I have absolutely no problems with being pretty much relatively neutral on the matter, aware of the plight of both the Israelis and the Palestinians. And certainly that the Israelis have a better quality of life does not mean that the Palestinians are entirely innocent victims. Nor is it true that Israel are entirely innocent victims either.

The sooner people get contradictory ancient fairytales out of their damn heads the sooner we'll get this thing settled.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by bcb

"Educated" is putting it too kindly, I'm afraid.

Universities, good ones anyway, provide an education on a vast range of topics. It is up to the student to understand and utilize the discussions (a good university presents and discusses, it does not teach- trade schools and technical colleges are for that, and certainly lead to honorable and important things in life) and interpret them. No university teaches that Israel is wrong. Politics classes and Philosophy classes and such present a HUGE range of opinions, they do not pick a favored one. Unless the professor is absolutely terrible at their job, they will always make it clear that they are presenting their opinion- if they have one- on an issue, before discussing it in a biased manner.

There are just as many conservatives and moderates on university campuses as lefties, and frankly, the 'leftist university student' cliche has grown incredibly tiresome.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

genocide is a bit much, dontcha think?

The way I see it, anyone who has done much research on the conflict should know that both sides have more than their fair share of bigots, unfortunately few pacifists, and justifiable and unjustifiable concerns, needs, wants, and even actions. That may sound like a diplomatic way of stating it, but contrary to many other conflicts, I have absolutely no problems with being pretty much relatively neutral on the matter, aware of the plight of both the Israelis and the Palestinians. And certainly that the Israelis have a better quality of life does not mean that the Palestinians are entirely innocent victims. Nor is it true that Israel are entirely innocent victims either.

The sooner people get contradictory ancient fairytales out of their damn heads the sooner we'll get this thing settled.

Remaining neutral in my opinion is wrong...one side uses suicide bombers and has no problem murdering anyone. How can anyone remain neutral on this?