Israel admits harvesting organs from Palestinians who didn't need them any more

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Israel was wrong for harvesting organs without permission. We treat our dead with dignity because they are the vessels that carried the ones we loved. It is the immediate family's responsibility to determine how best to honor their loved ones if the deceased didn't leave specific instructions. This determination should never fall to the State.

I can understand the temptation of a hospital to utilize what was available to save lives but it can't be morally justified. Human cadavers are a great source of fertilizer as well. Yet even the poorest countries don't stoop to utilizing their dead for such a purpose.

Your first point has merrit. The remark about fertilizers does not. In the case of organs you have to make the choice between watching a patient die or do something unethical.

In the case of fertilizers the stakes are not so high.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by blankall

Yes, it has been ethnically cleansed of 90% of the Jews who live there. The fact that so many has left is evidence towards things being not so great for Jews in Iran.

Perhaps we have different ideas of what ethnic cleansing is. Let's leave the term alone for a minute.

Can we agree that most of the Jews who left Iran did so immediately following the creation of the republic in 79 and was a reaction to the changing politics of the country, with a second wave fleeing the Iran/Iraq war in the 1980s?

Can we agree that the number of Jews in Iran has not declined significantly in the last 20 years?

Can we agree that Jews are allowed some rights in Iran (freedom to religion, education, legal rights, domestic travel) while being denied others (lack of political representation, restrictions on international travel, lack of association with certain foreigners, potentially including family)?

Can we agree that in 30 years of the republic a handful of Iranian Jews have been executed by the state for political reasons (some on obviously trumped-up charges), which matches a pattern of political executions throughout Iran's history?

Can we agree that there has been little to no civilian-on-civilian or military violence toward Jews in Iran?

Can we agree that emigration from Iran is extremely heterogenous, with a diaspora that includes a majority of Muslims, but also Christians, Jews, Baha'is, and Zoroastrians?

Those facts add up to in emigration pattern that does not match with my concept of ethnic cleansing. A difficult life in a totalitarian state? yes. A campaign of violence aimed at producing a homogenous ethnography? Far from it.

Look at, by comparison, Iran's campaigns against homosexuality. That is an example of a cleansing campaign, and a vicious and ugly one at that. Even the treatment of Baha'is is awful (though not quite cleansing).

Feel free to dispute any of the points above, or bring other facts that you feel make this an ethnic cleansing situation. Reading this post now, I think that it's tone might sound patronizing, which isn't my intent; I genuinely welcome further discussion on it.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Those facts add up to in emigration pattern that does not match with my concept of ethnic cleansing. A difficult life in a totalitarian state? yes. A campaign of violence aimed at producing a homogenous ethnography? Far from it.

Look at, by comparison, Iran's campaigns against homosexuality. That is an example of a cleansing campaign, and a vicious and ugly one at that. Even the treatment of Baha'is is awful (though not quite cleansing).

Feel free to dispute any of the points above, or bring other facts that you feel make this an ethnic cleansing situation. Reading this post now, I think that it's tone might sound patronizing, which isn't my intent; I genuinely welcome further discussion on it.

My definition is more focussed on the end result. A country without minorities. The Iranian government has been focused on making the country e with Persian dominance.

Whether they use dramatic acts of violence or a slow and steady campaign to force people out, the end result is the same. The methods may be different, but the end result is no Jews (or in this case, so far only 10% of Jews).

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by blankall

My definition is more focused on the end result. A country without minorities. The Iranian government has been focused on making the country e with Persian dominance.

Whether they use dramatic acts of violence or a slow and steady campaign to force people out, the end result is the same. The methods may be different, but the end result is no Jews (or in this case, so far only 10% of Jews).

If you can stop demonizing all things Muslim for a minute, how about commenting on the ethnic cleansing that occured outside the Middle East?

Do you hold the Baltic States in the same low regard as the Islamic States? I can't say as I've ever seen you post about that, although I could be mistaken. Surely you're aware their treatment of Jews was arguably worse.

BTW, why, in your scenarios, are the individuals who resettled always driven or forced out under threat of violence or persecution? Just maybe some decided to resettle in the Jewish homeland. Silly me, I thought that was at least part of the attraction of establishing Israel.

And finally, nice dodge of all the points raised by octothorp. When the facts get in the way, generalize. If the last 20 years of history (wrt Iranian Jews) is an inconvenient truth ..... ignore it!

Let me try the same strategy. Israeli rockets and Israeli soldiers have killed more Palestinian civilians that Hamas has killed Israeli civilians. Like you,

My definition is more focussed on the end result.

ergo, ipso facto, Israel is more evil than Hamas.

That strawman argument is as legitimate as the one you are making.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

If you can stop demonizing all things Muslim for a minute, how about commenting on the ethnic cleansing that occured outside the Middle East?

Well if you actually read my posts from start to finish, the point I was trying to make was that happened in the middle east was more akin to population transfer than ethnic cleansing. I've admitted that many Palestinians also lost their homes.

I also don't see how pointing out facts is "demonizing all things muslim". I haven't made any moral judgements here. Just pointing out the fact that many countries in the middle east formerly had Jewish populations. Now they do not. If you have facts to dispute this please point them out. Once again I have not denied that there are any Palestinians and their decendants who were forced out of what is now Israel.

The only reason I am bringing up any of this at all is to counterbalance the arguments brought into this thread that acccused Israel of ethnic cleansing. These anti-Israel arguments were brought up first, despite the fact they did not relate to the original topic. It's only fair I should be allowed to respond.

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Do you hold the Baltic States in the same low regard as the Islamic States? I can't say as I've ever seen you post about that, although I could be mistaken. Surely you're aware their treatment of Jews was arguably worse.

It's ironic that you accuse me of ignoring other problems in the world, in this case the baltic states. It seems like every thing Israel does gets its own thread. This thread is a prime example. How many threads do we have on the organ theft in China and India which is occuring on a much much larger scale?

For the record, I hold the people responsible for the genocide in the baltic states in the lowest possible regard.

Originally Posted by longsuffering

BTW, why, in your scenarios, are the individuals who resettled always driven or forced out under threat of violence or persecution? Just maybe some decided to resettle in the Jewish homeland. Silly me, I thought that was at least part of the attraction of establishing Israel.

I'm sure many Jews did voluntarily chose to leave for a Jewish homeland. However, I have a hard time beliving the porportions would be so high without significant forces driving them out.

Why haven't we witnessed the same occurence in North America then? Many Jews have left for Israel in North America, but many more chose to remain. The reason being they have proper rights.

Originally Posted by longsuffering

And finally, nice dodge of all the points raised by octothorp. When the facts get in the way, generalize. If the last 20 years of history (wrt Iranian Jews) is an inconvenient truth ..... ignore it!

Let me try the same strategy. Israeli rockets and Israeli soldiers have killed more Palestinian civilians that Hamas has killed Israeli civilians. Like you, ergo, ipso facto, Israel is more evil than Hamas.

That strawman argument is as legitimate as the one you are making.

I actually appreciated octothorp's points. Many of the facts he speaks of are true. He is using a narrower definition of ethnic clensing that leans more towards catostrophic events. Mine looks more at final numbers. Their both valid view points. I'm entitled to mine.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Let me try the same strategy. Israeli rockets and Israeli soldiers have killed more Palestinian civilians that Hamas has killed Israeli civilians. Like you, ergo, ipso facto, Israel is more evil than Hamas.

Is this sarcasm? I know we have been down this path before. Israeli rockets may have killed more Palestinian civilians than Hamas has killed Israeli civilians, but that is only because Hamas terrorists are using innocent people as shields, and Hamas is actively trying to target Israeli civilians who have a government who not only defends them, but provides assorted bunkers, shelters and other defense systems to keep them alive (Jews, Arabs, Christians etc.). I don't think Hamas allows any sort of system to keep the civilians they 'defend' alive, since they want civilian deaths - on BOTH sides.

Do you dispute this paragraph? In your opinion is Hamas' goal to defend innocent Palestinian people?

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Is this sarcasm? I know we have been down this path before. Israeli rockets may have killed more Palestinian civilians than Hamas has killed Israeli civilians, but that is only because Hamas terrorists are using innocent people as shields, and Hamas is actively trying to target Israeli civilians who have a government who not only defends them, but provides assorted bunkers, shelters and other defense systems to keep them alive (Jews, Arabs, Christians etc.). I don't think Hamas allows any sort of system to keep the civilians they 'defend' alive, since they want civilian deaths - on BOTH sides.

Do you dispute this paragraph? In your opinion is Hamas' goal to defend innocent Palestinian people?

I think if Hamas had $3 billion in US military support, they would be able to defend Palestinian civilians. Since they don't, they need to use crude weapons that they fire in Israel's general direction and hope they hit an Israeli civilian or military officer. They try to draw IDF ground troops into the war and hopefully kill a few. What does Israel expect? A rag tag paramilitary organization that has clearly marked bunkers and military installments in order for them to be easy targets for airstrikes?

[HOZ]

Hamas armed and ready for a new fight....err....defend Palestinians by firing missiles, unprovoked, at Israeli civilians.


Nice Hamas love in video.......Warning Graphic


Human shields......actually they just love them so much they keep them close


Check this one out. EVIL ZIONIST call up before bombing. Hamas response......call in the Human Shields!!!!!

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I think if Hamas had $3 billion in US military support, they would be able to defend Palestinian civilians. Since they don't, they need to use crude weapons that they fire in Israel's general direction and hope they hit an Israeli civilian or military officer. They try to draw IDF ground troops into the war and hopefully kill a few. What does Israel expect? A rag tag paramilitary organization that has clearly marked bunkers and military installments in order for them to be easy targets for airstrikes?

Hamas wants power... pure and simple. They are more powerful than the PA and therefore people are kind of forced to accept them. The fact is though, Hamas does not support freedom of speech and use scare tactics and extortion to maintain their power.

The PA and Israel would probably already have some kind of peace if Hamas didn't profit by keeping the situation the way it is.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Hamas wants power... pure and simple. They are more powerful than the PA and therefore people are kind of forced to accept them. The fact is though, Hamas does not support freedom of speech and use scare tactics and extortion to maintain their power.

The PA and Israel would probably already have some kind of peace if Hamas didn't profit by keeping the situation the way it is.

I agree with you, but doesn't every political party in the world only want power? I don't agree with Hamas' tactics, yet Fatah's corruption probably turned voters against them. Palestinians are kind of screwed no matter who they vote for.

With that said, I don't think anyone can deny that without Hamas and Hizballah, Israel would have never withdrawn from Gaza or Southern Lebanon. Yes it is ugly when civilians die when a rocket hits an Israeli school and kills a few civilians, but it does work. I am sure the Palestinians see more results with Hamas as opposed to Fatah.

What Israel needs to do, is reward Fatah by stopping settlements in the West Bank and work towards a meaningful and lasting peace. That way voters can get behind Fatah and Hamas would have no reason to exist.

[CaptainCrunch]

Hamas is more a death cult then a political party. Even if they had the means to defend their citizens, they wouldn't be interested in doing it. They use the death of their civilians towards thier own twisted aims and goals. One of their clearest tactics is to use their own people as a human shield.

They've shown that they're unwilling to negotiate, and if they do its to gain a period of rearmament and training. They refuse to renounce violence, they refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist, therefore to Israel there's no point in trying to reach a consensus with them.

I agree with the rewarding of Fatah as a tactic, but fatah is powerless against Hamas, and they won't be able to dislodge them politically.

The only thing that Israel can hope for is that eventually the average Joe Palestine will get sick of getting squeezed because of the lunatics in Hamas and toss them out of power.

While Israel has to accept a chunk of blame for the situation there, they are a nation that has been under constant attack and threat of violence since their founding and they're gained a stiff necked fortress mentality.

There will never be peace in that region, ever.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by _Q_

What Israel needs to do, is reward Fatah by stopping settlements in the West Bank and work towards a meaningful and lasting peace. That way voters can get behind Fatah and Hamas would have no reason to exist.

Do you really believe that Hamas will ever give up power? They are the ones with the guns and the intimidation. Even if they somehow lost a vote, they would merely annihilate Fatah's leadership and the rest of the party.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by _Q_

What Israel needs to do, is reward Fatah by stopping settlements in the West Bank and work towards a meaningful and lasting peace. That way voters can get behind Fatah and Hamas would have no reason to exist.

There is too much hate bred into these people, if your not muslim your a pig and should die. I see an end to this eventually but unfortunately it consists of a lot of dust and a piece of land that won't be lived on for a 1000 years.

Very sad.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I think if Hamas had $3 billion in US military support, they would be able to defend Palestinian civilians. Since they don't, they need to use crude weapons that they fire in Israel's general direction and hope they hit an Israeli civilian or military officer. They try to draw IDF ground troops into the war and hopefully kill a few. What does Israel expect? A rag tag paramilitary organization that has clearly marked bunkers and military installments in order for them to be easy targets for airstrikes?

If what you say is true, then why don't other Arab states provide support to the Palestinians? Only suckers fall for the argument you provide. In fact, I have found little of what you say to make any sense and you seem to completely ignore any point anyone makes. Hamas is not on the defensive, that is why they do not have bunkers for the civilians. They attack and hope to get attacked in return to show the world the Israeli 'atrocities'. You seem to justify Hamas and their use of murder of innocents to get their 'point' across.

[CaptainCrunch]

If Hamas got 3 billion in aid they would use it to hire better film crews.

[Calgaryborn]

I think the Palestinian people get too much of a free ride. They hate and teach their children to hate. They elected Hamas and willingly allow themselves to be human shields for that organization. They are the neighbours from hell.

I also think it is naive to think that surrendering some land will change the Palestinian's hearts towards Israel.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

If what you say is true, then why don't other Arab states provide support to the Palestinians? Only suckers fall for the argument you provide. In fact, I have found little of what you say to make any sense and you seem to completely ignore any point anyone makes. Hamas is not on the defensive, that is why they do not have bunkers for the civilians. They attack and hope to get attacked in return to show the world the Israeli 'atrocities'. You seem to justify Hamas and their use of murder of innocents to get their 'point' across.

Therein lies the problem. Any country that gives Hamas, or any other Palestinian organization any sort of military aide is automatically labelled as a rogue state and is sanctioned by the West. That is what happened to Iraq and that is what is currently happening to Syria and Iran. The United States are not interested in allowing the Palestinians to exercise their right to defend themselves.

I do not in any way justify what Hamas does, but I am saying that what they do IS effective in forcing the Israelis to make concessions that benefit the Palestinians. This is obviously more attractive to the average Palestinian Joe.

And please, come on, you actually believe that Hamas has the financial capability to build bunkers for its civilians? Better yet, do you actually believe that Israel wouldn't destroy any such bunker as soon ground is broken to build it?

Do you actually believe that Israel is completely innocent and only Palestinians kill civilians? How many so called Israeli smart bombs have caused civilian deaths in Gaza? How about the use of white phosphorous on the civilian population? How about the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas? These are all internationally recognized war crimes, even you can't deny that.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I think the Palestinian people get too much of a free ride. They hate and teach their children to hate. They elected Hamas and willingly allow themselves to be human shields for that organization. They are the neighbours from hell.

I also think it is naive to think that surrendering some land will change the Palestinian's hearts towards Israel.

Seems like Israelis are just as guilty as the Palestinians in hating the enemy. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/932384.html

to quote some interesting comments

Israeli society is reaching new heights of racism that damages freedom of expression and privacy

According to the June 2007 Democracy Index of the Israel Democracy Institute, for example, only half the public believes that Jews and Arabs must have full equal rights.

Among Jewish respondents, 55 percent support the idea that the state should encourage Arab emigration from Israel and 78 percent oppose the inclusion of Arab political parties in the government. According to a Haifa University study, 74 percent of Jewish youths in Israel think that Arabs are "unclean."

And my favorite one of them all:

The ACRI says that bills introduced in the Knesset contribute to delegitimize the country's Arab citizens, such as ones that would link the right to vote and receive state allowances to military or national service.

They also include bills that require ministers and MKs to swear allegiance to a Jewish state and those that set aside 13 percent of all state lands owned by the Jewish National Fund for Jews only.

Oh but Israel has the only gay pride parade in the region. And their topless beaches are ubercool!

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I do not in any way justify what Hamas does, but I am saying that what they do IS effective in forcing the Israelis to make concessions that benefit the Palestinians. This is obviously more attractive to the average Palestinian Joe.

Which concessions benefited the Palestinians? The hundreds of checkpoints that have been set up in the last ten years? The security wall? The hundreds of lost jobs? The withholding of tax dollars? The closure of boarders?

And please, come on, you actually believe that Hamas has the financial capability to build bunkers for its civilians?

Maybe not, but they have enough cash to keep buying rockets from Iran.

Better yet, do you actually believe that Israel wouldn't destroy any such bunker as soon ground is broken to build it?

No, they would probably wait until it was filled with rockets and ammunition or was housing a bomb making factory to destroy it.

Do you actually believe that Israel is completely innocent and only Palestinians kill civilians? How many so called Israeli smart bombs have caused civilian deaths in Gaza? How about the use of white phosphorous on the civilian population? How about the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas? These are all internationally recognized war crimes, even you can't deny that.

Israel is not completely innocent, but they are not completely at fault either. It is not Israel's fault that the Palestinian leadership is corrupt. It is not Israel's fault that Gazans are under the thumb of an oppressive regime which has no qualms in executing dissenters in the streets. At some point in time the Palestinians will have to take some responsibility for their own situation.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Is this sarcasm?

Clearly it is.

This didn't give you a hint?

That strawman argument is as legitimate as the one you are making.