Poster of naked Virgin Mary sparks unholy row

[Doctordestiny]

I can't believe that some of you actually don't see why Christians are offended by that depiction. Or why some of you think being religious is a bad thing. Some aspects of organized religion are distasteful, but being a believer instills good values and encourages certain behaviour. I do agree with some aspects of organized religion is bad. I donate a lot to Christian charities, including some of those that some of you dislike because it introduces children to God. I happen to think that's a good thing. Christians who practise their faith as it was meant to be are an asset, not people to be hated.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Originally Posted by photon

It wasn't up for very long until someone defaced it:

....

Of course some people find it offensive, for some reason some people think that what they think and believe should be immune to being questioned, scrutinized, criticized and ridiculed. Being able to express an opinion is ok as long as it's one you agree with eh mr-billboard-defacer.

You mean like on the Nickleback thread? Or, actually on every thread on this site.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Russic

Just because the majority are involved in religion doesn't mean it's correct to do so. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying religion is right or wrong, just that a majority shouldn't always validate something. For example I would guess that the majority of the world would believe that gay marriage is wrong ... that doesn't mean it is.

You certainly right that majority doesn't validate something. But I wasn't trying to make that point, I was responding specifically to T@T's post.

Originally Posted by T@T

Humanity has proven that religion is "stupid" and has no place among us.

Originally Posted by Burninator

With over 80% of the world being religious I don't see how this is the case.

Humanity is the entire race of people. I don't see how humanity has proven religion is stupid, while 80% still adhere to it. I took issue with the word humanity and prove.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Doctordestiny

Some aspects of organized religion are distasteful, but being a believer instills good values and encourages certain behaviour.

Not always, see: Westboro Baptist Church, Fundamentalist Chuch of Latter Day Saints, etc.

I happen to think that's a good thing. Christians who practise their faith as it was meant to be are an asset, not people to be hated.

When Christians can all agree on how their faith is to be practiced, I'll sit down and listen.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by driveway

When Christians can all agree on how their faith is to be practiced, I'll sit down and listen.

I'd personally get very, very leery if I was told that all Christians now all believe exactly the same thing, and it's all good, and it's perfect, and we can now go on with our lives knowing that we now know the absolute truth of life.

Admit it, you probably would too. You probably wouldn't sit down and now be open to it. It's one thing to be a skeptic, but being a skeptic in that kind of environment wouldn't be feasible.

I think it's a positive that there are so many different ways to try to experience and express being Christian - far less restrictive than an all-knowing superchurch. That's what we had in the Middle Ages, and it caused so many problems that the fix was protestantism.

Christians may not be perfect people, but then who is? Just because they aren't perfect, doesn't make them wrong because they argue. You could say the exact same thing about nearly every group of humans on the planet, from schools, businesses, scientists, or aid workers. It neither validates, nor invalidates their claims.

[PsYcNeT]

I just want to chime in, it's purported that Jesus's deification and the push behind the idea of the Virgin Birth we're a direct result of Paul's Hellenistic background prior to his conversion, and Paul's Christianity was an amalgam of three elements: Jewish Christianity (Messiah/Saviour-God), paganistic-saviour-god(s), and Gnostic ideas (namely fallen state/soul).

The idea as a whole is like a perfect mash-up of his personal ideals, and it's easy to see why it would become a sticking point.

[peter12]

To be fair, I don't see Catholics around the world rioting or burning down NZ embassies, so I think the response has been pretty measured as far as humanity goes.

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by Doctordestiny

I can't believe ... why some of you think being religious is a bad thing.

I am all for any communal group that believes in tolerance, scientific advancement, and promoting equality.

But in my experience most "religious" people aren't all about those things. They are more about things like:

• Homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry
• Stem cell research is wrong
• A woman should be forced to bring an unwanted child into the world.
• The natural world exists to serve man
• Humanity is the center of the universe
• Don't question the bible/word of God

Now, I've lately been going to a Unitarian church. Which fortunately accepts everyone (incl. atheists like me), and basically has a message of "don't be a dick to anyone, and try to improve the overall lot of mankind." Which is something I can get behind.

So don't assume that when people call out something as stupid as the idea of "divine birth" that it's a wholehearted attack on religion.

It's just mocking a silly belief that doesn't stand up to even cursory scrutiny - and therefore SHOULD be mocked.

[Resolute 14]

God would also like to suggest that you buy baseball tickets.

[Doctordestiny]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

I am all for any communal group that believes in tolerance, scientific advancement, and promoting equality.


But in my experience most "religious" people aren't all about those things. They are more about things like:

• Homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry
• Stem cell research is wrong
• A woman should be forced to bring an unwanted child into the world.
• The natural world exists to serve man
• Humanity is the center of the universe
• Don't question the bible/word of God

Now, I've lately been going to a Unitarian church. Which fortunately accepts everyone (incl. atheists like me), and basically has a message of "don't be a dick to anyone, and try to improve the overall lot of mankind." Which is something I can get behind.

So don't assume that when people call out something as stupid as the idea of "divine birth" that it's a wholehearted attack on religion.

It's just mocking a silly belief that doesn't stand up to even cursory scrutiny - and therefore SHOULD be mocked.

Let me tell you the kind of Christian I am. I've commented behind your point.

• Homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry - I don't believe homosexuals should be allowed to legally marry. If they want a union ceremony, fine. Just don't marry them. I think it threatens the family. I am tolerant of homsexuals and have some as friends and business associates, by the way.
• Stem cell research is wrong - I don't know. Don't know enough about it. If it doesn't destroy a life, I'm fine with it.
• A woman should be forced to bring an unwanted child into the world. - I'm opposed to abortion for the reason you've stated. I consider it taking a human life. I don't think we should take a human life for any reason, except self defence or equivalent.
• The natural world exists to serve man - I think it does.
• Humanity is the center of the universe - I think we are, although I don't discount the possibility of there being other races created by God.
• Don't question the bible/word of God - I don't question the word of God, but don't believe the Bible is entirely to be taken literally.

It's insulting when we're called stupid for believing as we do. I think our beliefs are valid and make total sense. I happen to believe that the theory of all this around us happening randomly makes little sense. There are some very intelligent people (including some of the greatest scientific minds of our time) who are Christians. A book I read by one of those brilliant scientists who was athiest and became Christian through his research is what turned me from a fence-sitter into a believer. It is the most amazing book I've ever read, so I read it twice in succession. I guess my point is that I feel that Christian ideas make sense and it insults when we're discounted as idiots for having those beliefs. We're not idiots; we just happen to disagree with you.

And yes I realize that there are also some great scientific minds who are not believers. Please don't bring that up as a rebuttal to my point.

[Huntingwhale]

I love Jesus

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Playfair

You can't call yourself a Christian and not believe in the virgin birth.

Says who?

I'm Christian and I do not believe in the virgin birth.

So do I have a say over whether I'm Christian or do you have the last word on that?

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Doctordestiny

Let me tell you the kind of Christian I am. I've commented behind your point.

• Homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry - I don't believe homosexuals should be allowed to legally marry. If they want a union ceremony, fine. Just don't marry them. I think it threatens the family. I am tolerant of homsexuals and have some as friends and business associates, by the way.

So in Canada the family is in danger? Being that we have legalized gay marriage. Just curious, do you think Homosexuality is a choice or something that your born with? Since you have friends I'm sure you've got an opinion on that.

Don't forget in the US much of the fights against gay 'rights' isn't about the word union/marriage, its denial of basic partner rights like if your partner dies you have power to act on their wishes for burial wishes, etc.. Also even things such as the right to visit in hospital your partner when in many states a gay partner has no family rights to visit.

Since you probably find comfort in the Bible's statements on homosexuality, do you also view shellfish, and 2 types of cloth being worn at the same time as abominations as well? I mean if you accept the word that homosexuality is an abomination, how about the other things most if not all Christians ignore as abominations while still holding onto this bronze age fear of homosexuality.

• Stem cell research is wrong - I don't know. Don't know enough about it. If it doesn't destroy a life, I'm fine with it.

New research is allowing us to create stem cells without fetal stem cells, so this debate will not last forever. But the typical use of stem cells is from births where the stem cells are collected instead of destroyed. Obviously the contention is those who take stem cells from abortions to use for medical science research.

The natural world exists to serve man - I think it does.

I would as strongly as possible disagree with you, especially because that belief is inherently dangerous to our future existence as a species. We know that we are part of the animal kingdom, DNA shows our close relations to other animals, we are part then of circle of life and any imbalance we create will indirectly start to harm our lives. Its in our best interests to clean up our act and work towards balance with nature otherwise we will perish like 99% of all life on earth has before us.

Don't question the bible/word of God - I don't question the word of God, but don't believe the Bible is entirely to be taken literally.It's insulting when we're called stupid for believing as we do.

Well thats the problem, in all religions not just yours interpretations are done to suit/conform to ideals of the time, and evolves throughout time. Which is the case I pointed out with Gay rights, its conveniently done to point out in the Bible its sinfulness and how we should be against this, yet people ignore the silly and contradictory statements all over the Bible. Pick and choose religiosity I call it, and thats why you either take the whole Bible as truth or you concede its a work of man and therefor is fallible like man is.

I think our beliefs are valid and make total sense. I happen to believe that the theory of all this around us happening randomly makes little sense. There are some very intelligent people (including some of the greatest scientific minds of our time) who are Christians. A book I read by one of those brilliant scientists who was athiest and became Christian through his research is what turned me from a fence-sitter into a believer. It is the most amazing book I've ever read, so I read it twice in succession. I guess my point is that I feel that Christian ideas make sense and it insults when we're discounted as idiots for having those beliefs. We're not idiots; we just happen to disagree with you.

Just curious, what book is that? Anyhow I don't call Christians idiots as a whole, I prefer to attack specific issues, Gay rights is one that really bothers me as well is the attack on science, especially the fight to teach in public schools, creationism.

The more I've studied science the more the 'randomness' makes perfect sense, you can learn about the universe being created from nothing, marvel at the biodiversity brought about by evolution and be in awe of nature when you truly spend the time to learn biology, astronomy, physics and chemistry.

And yes I realize that there are also some great scientific minds who are not believers. Please don't bring that up as a rebuttal to my point.

But you make the point that there are believers who are scientists, why does that not allow others to make the counter point? But really there are lots of Christians/Catholics that fully accept evolution, there is plenty of Scientists that are more akin to being Deists. I mean really thats all nice and good but its not that important, the arguments and ideas are what counts.

I find it hard to accept a belief in god because of my understanding of the natural world, my nagging thought about that there have been 1000's of gods no one believes today, there are 100's of sects of all major religions and that is what makes it quite clear to me that the idea of God is a human creation, not the other way around.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Says who?

I'm Christian and I do not believe in the virgin birth.

So do I have a say over whether I'm Christian or do you have the last word on that?

Anybody can call themselves anything they want but, there are core beliefs that Christians have held since the first century. They have been identified in confessions and creeds repeatedly through out that time and are based on an overwhelming consensus of what the scriptures do say.

As a Baptist I don't adhere to any creed but, you would find the confession of faith of the church I attend to repeat those basic doctrines.

I also strongly believe in "soul liberty" which basically means that my allegiance is to God first and I am free to question anything my church teaches in light of scriptures. But, what makes me a Baptist is adherence to certain doctrinal distinctives. Likewise what makes me a Christian is adherence to certain doctrinal distinctives. One of those distinctives is a belief in the reality and necessity of the virgin birth.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Doctordestiny

Let me tell you the kind of Christian I am. I've commented behind your point.

• Homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry - I don't believe homosexuals should be allowed to legally marry. If they want a union ceremony, fine. Just don't marry them. I think it threatens the family.

• I am tolerant of homsexuals and have some as friends and business associates, by the way.

Stem cell research is wrong - I don't know. Don't know enough about it. If it doesn't destroy a life, I'm fine with it.
A woman should be forced to bring an unwanted child into the world. - I'm opposed to abortion for the reason you've stated. I consider it taking a human life. I don't think we should take a human life for any reason, except self defence or equivalent.
The natural world exists to serve man - I think it does.

• Humanity is the center of the universe - I think we are, although I don't discount the possibility of there being other races created by God.

• Don't question the bible/word of God - I don't question the word of God, but don't believe the Bible is entirely to be taken literally.

It's insulting when we're called stupid for believing as we do. I think our beliefs are valid and make total sense.

I happen to believe that the theory of all this around us happening randomly makes little sense.

There are some very intelligent people (including some of the greatest scientific minds of our time) who are Christians. A book I read by one of those brilliant scientists who was athiest and became Christian through his research is what turned me from a fence-sitter into a believer. It is the most amazing book I've ever read, so I read it twice in succession. I guess my point is that I feel that Christian ideas make sense and it insults when we're discounted as idiots for having those beliefs. We're not idiots; we just happen to disagree with you.

And yes I realize that there are also some great scientific minds who are not believers. Please don't bring that up as a rebuttal to my point.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Anybody can call themselves anything they want but, there are core beliefs that Christians have held since the first century. They have been identified in confessions and creeds repeatedly through out that time and are based on an overwhelming consensus of what the scriptures do say.

As a Baptist I don't adhere to any creed but, you would find the confession of faith of the church I attend to repeat those basic doctrines.

I also strongly believe in "soul liberty" which basically means that my allegiance is to God first and I am free to question anything my church teaches in light of scriptures. But, what makes me a Baptist is adherence to certain doctrinal distinctives. Likewise what makes me a Christian is adherence to certain doctrinal distinctives. One of those distinctives is a belief in the reality and necessity of the virgin birth.

So, if I don't believe, I can't be a Christian?

And somehow you have the moral or spiritual authority to make that judgement?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Thor

Since you probably find comfort in the Bible's statements on homosexuality, do you also view shellfish, and 2 types of cloth being worn at the same time as abominations as well? I mean if you accept the word that homosexuality is an abomination, how about the other things most if not all Christians ignore as abominations while still holding onto this bronze age fear of homosexuality.

That is an ignorant and tiresome argument. Tiresome because you've used it a number of times. Ignorant because you know there are 2 different covenants at play and Christians are not expected to maintain the first. You also know that homosexuality is spoken against in the New Testament.

You being an Atheist I understand you believe your existence will be brief and has no purpose. That obviously makes you a little bitter. But if you must spread your bile to a thread about things you don't believe in could you at least be original?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

So, if I don't believe, I can't be a Christian?

And somehow you have the moral or spiritual authority to make that judgement?

It doesn't take "moral or spiritual authority" to read a dictionary and define the meaning of a word. Nor would I consider accepting that definition as read to be "making a judgement".

Likewise, it doesn't take a "moral or spiritual authority" to read the historical Creeds and Statements of faith which has defined what the Christian faith believes and note that belief in the virgin birth is a consistent and essential element in them. I'm not "making the judgement". I'm acknowledge the historical definition of the Christian faith.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Doctordestiny

I think our beliefs are valid and make total sense.

But do you REALLY believe that? And are you willing to debate those beliefs?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by T@T

But do you REALLY believe that? And are you willing to debate those beliefs?

Maybe you should define what you think a debate curtails. Usually around here it involves a lot of cutting and pasting from atheist sites by two or three of you atheists with a few others chiming in with little pot shots. A person would have to be here full time in order to answer half the volume. Hardly a favorable environment for an exchange of ideas.