How players Sutter has drafted as the Flames GM are doing this season

[Torture]

Originally Posted by cobra14

thats just it you said it yourself... the only reason kane toews stamkos and you can even go as far as ovechkin and malkin is because we were never ranked so low since back in our 9 season playoff drought which even then had some horrible pools to draft out of.

I'm pretty sure half the responses in this thread should be in green text.

[DrPepper]

Sometimes I think Sutter needs to stay away from Western/Canadian Player Draft picks and go for some skilled danglers from Europe. Thats my opinion through.

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by DrPepper

Sometimes I think Sutter needs to stay away from Western/Canadian Player Draft picks and go for some skilled danglers from Europe. Thats my opinion through.

COnsidering 3 players he picked last year were Euros.

One is a potential sniper.

[Cactus Jack]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yep. Our drafting sucks big time.

Only four guys playing on our NHL roster right now that Sutter drafted: (Phaneuf, Boyd, Prust and Pardy. Five if you count Gio, whom Sutter signed after he went un-drafted.)

Also, only three other guys playing on our roster that were drafted by the Flames pre-Sutter: (Moss, Nystrom and McElhinney)

That's pathetic......only eight NHLers on our roster that we drafted.....and they all SUCK anyways.

Not to mention that we don't have ANY guys on the farm who are almost ready to be full time NHLers.........like Irving, Backlund, Pelech, Negrin, Van der Gulik, Sutter, Chucko and J.Armstrong.....horrible prospect pool.

How come we never draft any good players like Kane, Toews, Stamkos etc......? I mean other than the fact that we have a competetive team every year and never get to draft higher than 20th overall????

Sutter's drafting is nothing to be proud of, don't kid yourself. He has been at the helm since December 2002 and all we have to show for it are Dion, Boyd, Pardy and Prust. Not exactly much to write home about considering how much time has passed. How many GMs even get more than 7 years?

The only way to get good players is to tank, right? It's not like Boston in the same time frame found in the 2nd round alone Lucic, Bergeron and Krejci. It's not like St. Louis after the 24th pick drafted Oshie, Backes, Berglund and Perron. You need to tank to get good young players, right?

If the best thing you can hang your hat on to defend Sutter's drafting record is the future promise of Backlund, Irving, Nemisz and Negrin, you are standing on a thin branch my friend. Only time will tell if they are any better Saprykin.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Cactus Jack

Sutter's drafting is nothing to be proud of, don't kid yourself. He has been at the helm since December 2002 and all we have to show for it are Dion, Boyd, Pardy and Prust. Not exactly much to write home about considering how much time has passed. How many GMs even get more than 7 years?

The only way to get good players is to tank, right? It's not like Boston in the same time frame found in the 2nd round alone Lucic, Bergeron and Krejci. It's not like St. Louis after the 24th pick drafted Oshie, Backes, Berglund and Perron. You need to tank to get good young players, right?

If the best thing you can hang your hat on to defend Sutter's drafting record is the future promise of Backlund, Irving, Nemisz and Negrin, you are standing on a thin branch my friend. Only time will tell if they are any better Saprykin.

Could Sutter's drafting have been better? Sure, maybe...but you could say that about a lot of teams.

To say Sutter's drafting "sucks", is ridiculous.

I mean, if Boston knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that Krejci, Lucic and Bergeron were gonna be sure fire productive NHLers, then why didn't they pick those guys with their first pick in each year? It's not an exact science, that's why.

Besides, Sutter in that period of time turned his second rounders into players like Kiprusoff and Bourque.

More than one way to stock your team with solid young(ish) players.

[Cactus Jack]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Could Sutter's drafting have been better? Sure, maybe...but you could say that about a lot of teams.

To say Sutter's drafting "sucks", is ridiculous.

I mean, if Boston knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that Krejci, Lucic and Bergeron were gonna be sure fire productive NHLers, then why didn't they pick those guys with their first pick in each year? It's not an exact science, that's why.

Besides, Sutter in that period of time turned his second rounders into players like Kiprusoff and Bourque.

More than one way to stock your team with solid young(ish) players.

Sutter does deserve credit for turning 2nd rounders into great pieces like Bourque, Kiprusoff, Tanguay, etc and it's not like he is the worst drafting GM in the league. However, many Flames fans have a self-inflated sense of our drafting and prospects when realistically speaking the best 2 Flames drafted prospects in the last 10 years have been Dion and Kobasew/Lombardi.

And I hate that cop out that if Boston knew their 2nd rounders would be good, they would have taken them with their 1st pick. There are many gems in later rounds that aren't even on the draft lists of some other teams, which is a credit to the scouting staff of that particular team. The fact of that matter remains that it doesn't matter where you pick them, it is that you pick the right ones. I'd be perfectly happy if we drafted 1st round busts for the next decade as long as we drafted a superstar in the 7th round each year.

[Mad Mel]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I mean, if Boston knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that Krejci, Lucic and Bergeron were gonna be sure fire productive NHLers, then why didn't they pick those guys with their first pick in each year? It's not an exact science, that's why.

Because drafting Kessel and Lucic is better than just drafting Lucic? Perhaps the biggest reason that Detroit is the class of the NHL is because they can draft the later rounds better than anyone. FTR, Krejci was Boston's first pick that year, they didn't have a 1st rounder.

[Torture]

Sutter does deserve credit for turning 2nd rounders into great pieces like Bourque, Kiprusoff, Tanguay, etc and it's not like he is the worst drafting GM in the league. However, many Flames fans have a self-inflated sense of our drafting and prospects when realistically speaking the best 2 Flames drafted prospects in the last 10 years have been Dion and Kobasew/Lombardi.

Moss, Nystrom, Pardy, Prust, Giordano (Yes I realize he was undrafted) and Boyd say hi.

That said, I see what you're saying. Some of Sutter's first drafts were a little weak, and that's a fair point.

His latest drafts (2008 and 2009 in particular) seem to have some early signs of finding some gems, but we'll have to wait and see to find out if he's turned the corner.

Personally I'm excited to see if Irving, Backlund, Nemisz and Brodie can make the jump as they all seem like very solid prospects....but I'm adopting a patient "wait and see" approach.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Mad Mel

Because drafting Kessel and Lucic is better than just drafting Lucic? Perhaps the biggest reason that Detroit is the class of the NHL is because they can draft the later rounds better than anyone. FTR, Krejci was Boston's first pick that year, they didn't have a 1st rounder.

That's true about Detroit, and the Flames while not at that level are getting better at drafting, especially in the later rounds.

Giordano was an undrafted free agent signing, Moss was a 6th rounder and Pardy was a 7th rounder.....not to mention Boyd who was picked in the 3rd round. I realize none of these guys are in the same class as Zetterberg, Datsyuk or Holmstrom but they are still young and are improving year after year.

As for Krejci, yes he was the Bruins first pick that year...and obviously he has turned out to be a very solid pick. But what about their next pick? They picked Martins Karsums immediately after Krejci and how did that work out for them? Just proves my point that in the end drafting isn't an exact science.

That year we picked Chucko in the first round, 24th overall. Players we could have drafted instead include:

Mike Green 29th
Dave Bolland 32nd
Blake Comeau 47th
David Booth 53rd
Tyler Kennedy 99th
Kris Versteeg 134th

However, besides Chucko some of the other players taken way before most of these guys include:

Al Montoya 6th
Laurie Tukonen 11th
Devan Dubnyk 14th
Marek Schwarz 17th
Rob Schremp 25th
Andy Rogers 30th

There are alot of "what-ifs" when it comes to drafting (and looking back at past drafts). Sure the Flames and Sutter could have made some different or better picks but the same can be said for all teams.

The bottom line is, the Flames do not "suck" at drafting IMO, not anymore anyways.

[DrPepper]

Originally Posted by Patrick

COnsidering 3 players he picked last year were Euros.

One is a potential sniper.

yeah, thats a good start. I hope he keeps drafting euro's.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by DrPepper

yeah, thats a good start. I hope he keeps drafting euro's.

I hope he drafts the player he feels will have the best career in the NHL and can bring the most to the Calgary Flames, regardless of nationality.

[WilliPlett]

With all these fine arguments, the Flames drafting still sucks and until otherwise proven wrong, the Flames will feel the pinch. Sutter has made some great trades so drafting hasn't been needed. Wasn't it Sutter that said said he wants 2 players from the farm to come to the big club every year.

[Vulcan]

Sutter does deserve credit for turning 2nd rounders into great pieces like Bourque, Kiprusoff, Tanguay, etc and it's not like he is the worst drafting GM in the league. However, many Flames fans have a self-inflated sense of our drafting and prospects when realistically speaking the best 2 Flames drafted prospects in the last 10 years have been Dion and Kobasew/Lombardi.

I agree, these second rounders he gave up have turned into sure things, a far better gamble than going to the draft and spending time and spending money and hoping a 18 year old player turns into something valuable.

In reference to teams going into rebuild mode and tanking for a few years in order to get top picks, Lou Lameralo said (couldn't find the interview) there is no need for teams to go into rebuilding mode these days with the options teams now have. This is why it's important for the Flames to make the playoffs every year and why Sutter made the trade with Boston, so players know this is a good destination and want to come and play here.

Drafts and watching young players develop is fun for us fans but I think it's becoming a less important part of team development.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by WilliPlett

With all these fine arguments, the Flames drafting still sucks and until otherwise proven wrong, the Flames will feel the pinch. Sutter has made some great trades so drafting hasn't been needed. Wasn't it Sutter that said said he wants 2 players from the farm to come to the big club every year.

Sorry but that's crap... Sutter has done a really good job restocking the farm system with quality prospects. More of the prospects would be on the Flames team if it was not for a really deep NHL club.

When Injuries happen the prospects will get a chance (i.e. 2 prospects per year thing). With November such a busy month Injuries are going to occur its only a matter of time.

Flames however, move their prospects slower through the system (i.e. like the Wings). It does not mean the drafting is poor, it just takes time to develop the player properly.

[Cactus Jack]

I hate that weak argument that the draft is a TOTAL crapshoot. If it were all purely luck there would be no scouts, no budet for scouting, no travelling for games, no preparation and teams would pick blindly on a list of players. The fact remains that yes, not all teams make great picks 100% of the time but the good team consistently find gems in later rounds and make their first and second rounders count no matter what number they draft from (Boston, St. Louis, Detroit, Chicago, Washington, etc) every year.

We can either get better scouts or continue to expect mediocrity in drafting and have high hopes for the future. Yes, Dion is great and Boyd, Pardy Prust are nice (Nystrom and Moss were drafted by Button) but when that is all you can hang your hat, we are legitimately a middle of the pack drafting team unless we finally have some high end players develop.

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by flambers

Sorry but that's crap... Sutter has done a really good job restocking the farm system with quality prospects. More of the prospects would be on the Flames team if it was not for a really deep NHL club.

When Injuries happen the prospects will get a chance (i.e. 2 prospects per year thing). With November such a busy month Injuries are going to occur its only a matter of time.

Flames however, move their prospects slower through the system (i.e. like the Wings). It does not mean the drafting is poor, it just takes time to develop the player properly.

good post. i would also say that having good folks in your organization as coaches and trainers and such makes a big difference. especially if you are going to take time with players, having the staff to help them develop is essential. you could be a great drafter and have poor minor league coaching and that would nerf a lot of your prospects or stunt their growth, etc.

i think some organizations can get themselves a good or bad reputation over the long term, but getting a player to the nhl is a very long and complex process. saying that players are/aren't successful just because sutter picked them is a bit simplistic.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Cactus Jack

I hate that weak argument that the draft is a TOTAL crapshoot. If it were all purely luck there would be no scouts, no budet for scouting, no travelling for games, no preparation and teams would pick blindly on a list of players. The fact remains that yes, not all teams make great picks 100% of the time but the good team consistently find gems in later rounds and make their first and second rounders count no matter what number they draft from (Boston, St. Louis, Detroit, Chicago, Washington, etc) every year.

I'd say right now Boston and St. Louis are two of the best drafting organizations - but its funny how other teams can the reputation for being tremendous drafters even when they hit a dry spell.

Detroit hasn't been producing young core players as much lately and its starting to show on the big club. They are riding the reputation of the Zetterberg/Datsyuk picks - but those were a long time ago now.

Chicago's great drafting is almost exclusively because of drafting VERY high for a few years. The rest of their drafts have been pretty meh.

Washington has drafted a lot of good players but look at how high they have been in some cases, and more importantly how many first round picks they've had in the last few years. They've managed to miss on their share too:
Eric Fehr
Steve Eminger
Boyd Gordon
Jeff Schultz
Sasha Pokuluk

That's not great.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Cactus Jack

I hate that weak argument that the draft is a TOTAL crapshoot. If it were all purely luck there would be no scouts, no budet for scouting, no travelling for games, no preparation and teams would pick blindly on a list of players. The fact remains that yes, not all teams make great picks 100% of the time but the good team consistently find gems in later rounds and make their first and second rounders count no matter what number they draft from (Boston, St. Louis, Detroit, Chicago, Washington, etc) every year.

We can either get better scouts or continue to expect mediocrity in drafting and have high hopes for the future. Yes, Dion is great and Boyd, Pardy Prust are nice (Nystrom and Moss were drafted by Button) but when that is all you can hang your hat, we are legitimately a middle of the pack drafting team unless we finally have some high end players develop.

I don't know if this is directed at me or not, but I never said it was a TOTAL crapshoot. I said it's not an exact science. Every team has it's hits and misses when it comes to drafting.

As for the Flames being a middle of the pack drafting club in recent history, I agree with you. I just disagree with people who say our drafting "sucks", especially when they fail to provide any argument at all to back up their claim.

[Cactus Jack]

I wasn't talking about you specifically Roof Daddy.

Jiri, Detroit would be in a better position had they not lost Hudler, but you are right about them. For every pick like Kane, Toews, Barker and to a lesser extent Seabrook, Chicago has drafted Keith, Byfuglien, Versteeg, Bolland, Hjalmarsson and perhaps even Niemi late.

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Detroit hasn't been producing young core players as much lately and its starting to show on the big club. They are riding the reputation of the Zetterberg/Datsyuk picks - but those were a long time ago now.

while there is a lot of merit to what you are saying, i think the backlash of how thats all detroit has done is starting to become a similar myth.

just for informations sake, here are a few more picks that detroit has made recently.

jonathan ericsson: was the last pick of the 02 draft. has become an nhl regular and based off his playoff play last year, i think he does have top 4 potential once lidstrom and rafalski retire.

darren helm: was a 5th rounder in 05. has finally started to get regular nhl time. probably just a bottom 6 forward but thats a pretty good turn out for a 5th rounder.

valtteri filppula: though still a bit of a bust in many wings fans eyes, he has been a pretty good contributor, and really was expected to be a top 6 guy and finally get the PP minutes that would help out his point totals. he was a 3rd rounder in 02, but still pretty solid.

ville leino: though not a draft pick, he was a free agent signing similar to giordano for you guys. though he was pretty impressive in the finnish leagues he played in, he was not near as heavily sought after as someone like fabian bruunstrom. so i do give the wings a bit of credit in their scouting and willingness to give him a contract.



so while they certainly haven't found any top 10 forwards in the 7th round like they did with datsyuk and zetterberg, their drafting has still been pretty solid. additionally, with detroit in contention every year, they often unload young talent in deadline deals. a guy like kyle quincey was a 4th rounder they picked and has turned into a pretty darned good dman, but they just didn't have the roster spot for him last year and had to expose him to waivers. so similar to my post earlier, it wasn't that their drafting or development was bad, but that other circumstances just made it unworkable. one last tidbit, i think justin abdelkader also has a ton of potential to be a good forward. however, he was a 2nd rounder, so it wasn't as much of a diamond in the rough pick.