Windows 7: More disapointing as the days go on

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by dobbles

since this thread has been totally hijacked, and because my job is boring, i went over to newegg and looked some stuff up. i am not providing links as i don't care enough to copy and paste all that. this is in regards to that 27" model that was posted.

monitor - they only had 3 27" models and they didn't specifically state if they had IPS, but they looked pretty solid for around $400
processor - intel i5 @ 2.66ghz was $200
ram - 4gb (2x2) of 1066mhz was around $75
hdd - 1tb @ 7200 rpm was around $90
ati radeon 4850 w/512mb of ram was $120
dvd multidrives were around $30
motherboard i looked for a pretty basic model that had ieee 1394 ports, gigabit lan, the audio inputs listed for the mac and found there were many priced around $100
power supply 700W for $75
basic keyboard and moue $30
speakers @ 24W for $20
bluetooth 2.1 usb adapter for $15
wireless N pci card for $40
basic microphone $10
media card reader for $20
webcam simple 1.3mp for $50
windows OS around $150

that gives a total of $1475. i tried not to just pick the absolute lowest priced components. just as i do when i shop, i looked for some well rated versions and then picked an average price. with all the components you might be able to save a few bucks in some places and lose a few in others.

i know there will probably be more hyper analytic complaints about my choices, but i would be able to build a comparable system for hundreds less. so i will continue to hold to the mac is more expensive mantra.

EDIT: forgot to add a case. since most cases are aestetic choices, i will just add $50 for that. they start on newegg around 20 bucks, so i think 50 is reasonable. updated the total to reflect that.

Nice try, but you went to Newegg.com - not Newegg.ca. There's a huge difference in prices for Canadians.

In fact, they have only one monitor with IPS for Canadians, and it's a 24" HP running a 1920 x 1200 resolution for $650. Compare that to the 27" running 2560 x 1440 resolution found in the iMac. Even the $1700 iMac has this 27" panel in it.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

Holy crap. they must have you working some major overtime at the mac store.

I don't work at the Apple store.

Why are facts so hard for people to swallow?

It's ok people, you can let go of the lies. I don't care if you use a PC or a Mac, but it's ok to buy a $400 PC without also having to tell yourself that you have the same computer as that big shiny iMac with the evil price tag.

(This is sarcastic humour, btw. I know the price tag isn't evil. It's an inanimate object, it doesn't have any tendencies at all.)

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

I can build an equivalent PC desktop (tower) with monitor (a beautiful 26" with TV tuner and speakers), PC speakers, keyboard mouse, webcam, (everything that mac you posted had) for $600 less. In the PC world, $600 can buy you a heck of a lot.

Ok... first of all... if you're building a complete computer that has a 26" screen with a built-in TV tuner for $600, I want to see this. Considering this list of 26" monitors at MemoryExpress (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...9/Default.aspx), I'm going to call BS on this claim. Note the 26" monitor with built-in TV tuner is $500, which leaves you with $100 to build the rest of your entire PC. I'm sure you can get it cheaper, but you're going to need at least $300-$400 for the actual PC part of the equation, even if you cheap out on every single component.

Secondly, I know you can build cheap PCs. I do it myself all the time. You can't build a PC with the same specs as an iMac for less than what the iMac sells for. This is the ONLY point I have tried to make.

[Phaneuf3]

Another interesting way to look at the PC vs Mac pricing and PC vs Mac specs...

You could have a $1000 Mac with marginally better hardware or a $400 PC with more than enough power to do what you need. How often are people replacing their Macs these days? Every 4 years-ish?

So... buy a $1000 Mac today and keep it for 4 years.
-OR-
Buy a $400 PC today and in two years, take another $400 that you saved and buy another $400 PC that far surpasses that 2 year old mac's hardware. This way you end up with a more powerful computer, 2 computers AND $200 in your pocket.

Moore's Law FTW!

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Secondly, I know you can build cheap PCs. I do it myself all the time. You can't build a PC with the same specs as an iMac for less than what the iMac sells for. This is the ONLY point I have tried to make.

You can't build a PC with the same specs for less because you are doing a custom build using retail components, or using a manufacturer's BTO option - of course its going to be more expensive, that one-off Mac-identical PC doesn't have the economy of scale that the Macs do. If Dell or HP offered the same, identical hardware as the iMac, I guarantee it would come in cheaper - that's their entire business model, racing to the bottom on price.

The Mac platform has a consistently higher profit margin at retail than competitors in Dell, Gateway, etc. So clearly, either Apple is building them cheaper than the competitors (and you know this isn't true - all that glass and aluminum costs more than Dell's plastic and chrome crap), or people are paying slightly more for Macs (which they do).

So claiming Macs are cheaper is wrong - if they were, Apple would make less money, and smaller margins per unit sold, than Dell.

You are twisting the truth just as badly as the PC side of the argument. I'm saying this as a Mac user, as well as an Apple certified sales rep who has done the buying and selling of Macs for retail.

At the end of the day, Macs are slightly more expensive. Mac consumers also spend more on average than regular PC consumers by choice on their technology, and if they are invested in the platform, they are happy to do so. The thing is, you are arguing about a couple hundred bucks either way - 10-15% at most, maybe 20% at the real edge cases where you are buying the absolute top of the line (and Dell has premium lines for people that like to overpay for the latest and greatest too....)

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

Another interesting way to look at the PC vs Mac pricing and PC vs Mac specs...

You could have a $1000 Mac with marginally better hardware or a $400 PC with more than enough power to do what you need. How often are people replacing their Macs these days? Every 4 years-ish?

So... buy a $1000 Mac today and keep it for 4 years.
-OR-
Buy a $400 PC today and in two years, take another $400 that you saved and buy another $400 PC that far surpasses that 2 year old mac's hardware. This way you end up with a more powerful computer, 2 computers AND $200 in your pocket.

Moore's Law FTW!

Say it with me, brother...

"Macs are not over-priced. Yes, they are more expensive than I am willing to pay, but when compared against equivalently spec'd PCs, they are actually cheaper."

You can do it. Come on! Hit me with it!

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I don't work at the Apple store.

Why are facts so hard for people to swallow?

It's ok people, you can let go of the lies. I don't care if you use a PC or a Mac, but it's ok to buy a $400 PC without also having to tell yourself that you have the same computer as that big shiny iMac with the evil price tag.

(This is sarcastic humour, btw. I know the price tag isn't evil. It's an inanimate object, it doesn't have any tendencies at all.)



Ok... first of all... if you're building a complete computer that has a 26" screen with a built-in TV tuner for $600, I want to see this. Considering this list of 26" monitors at MemoryExpress (http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...9/Default.aspx), I'm going to call BS on this claim. Note the 26" monitor with built-in TV tuner is $500, which leaves you with $100 to build the rest of your entire PC. I'm sure you can get it cheaper, but you're going to need at least $300-$400 for the actual PC part of the equation, even if you cheap out on every single component.

Secondly, I know you can build cheap PCs. I do it myself all the time. You can't build a PC with the same specs as an iMac for less than what the iMac sells for. This is the ONLY point I have tried to make.

You misunderstood... I said $600 less, not $600 total.

I get your argument, I understand it. You can get a cheap PC... you're not talking about that. I get that. You are talking about equivalent all-in-ones. I get that.

But go build an equivalent desktop tower PC. As I stated, for those that want to spend money on an equivalent PC, sans the all-in-one coolness factor, it IS cheaper.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

You can't build a PC with the same specs for less because you are doing a custom build using retail components, or using a manufacturer's BTO option - of course its going to be more expensive, that one-off Mac-identical PC doesn't have the economy of scale that the Macs do. If Dell or HP offered the same, identical hardware as the iMac, I guarantee it would come in cheaper - that's their entire business model, racing to the bottom on price.

The Mac platform has a consistently higher profit margin at retail than competitors in Dell, Gateway, etc. So clearly, either Apple is building them cheaper than the competitors (and you know this isn't true - all that glass and aluminum costs more than Dell's plastic and chrome crap), or people are paying slightly more for Macs (which they do).

So claiming Macs are cheaper is wrong - if they were, Apple would make less money, and smaller margins per unit sold, than Dell.

You are twisting the truth just as badly as the PC side of the argument. I'm saying this as a Mac user, as well as an Apple certified sales rep who has done the buying and selling of Macs for retail.

At the end of the day, Macs are slightly more expensive. Mac consumers also spend more on average than regular PC consumers by choice on their technology, and if they are invested in the platform, they are happy to do so. The thing is, you are arguing about a couple hundred bucks either way - 10-15% at most, maybe 20% at the real edge cases where you are buying the absolute top of the line (and Dell has premium lines for people that like to overpay for the latest and greatest too....)

Did you see the comparisons of the matching-spec Dell laptop vs MacBook and Dell all-in-one vs iMac? Not meant to contest your points, I'm just saying that they're pretty telling comparisons.

Edit: Nevermind, I see you mentioned the BTO bit.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

You misunderstood... I said $600 less, not $600 total.

You're right. Sorry about that, I did misread your post. I was wondering about why you would make that claim, since you're usually pretty on-the-ball.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Say it with me, brother...

"Macs are not over-priced. Yes, they are more expensive than I am willing to pay, but when compared against equivalently spec'd PCs, they are actually cheaper."

You can do it. Come on! Hit me with it!

Mac's are over-priced. That's a simple fact that would be tough to argue.
High end Windows based PCs are over-priced too - no argument from me on that one either.

"Budget PC's are a far better value and will meet almost everyone's computing needs."
Come on! Say it with me!

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

Mac's are over-priced. That's a simple fact that would be tough to argue.
High end Windows based PCs are over-priced too - no argument from me on that one either.

Ahhh, now I get it. You're equating "more than you're willing to pay" to being "over-priced."

Man, this would have been nice to figure out 4 pages ago.

[Bertuzzied]

Say it with me, brother...

"Mac stores suck. Mac commercials suck more. Why anyone would want to buy a mac after viewing them is beyond me."

You can do it. Come on! Hit me with it!

Oh yeah. Mac guy saves the world with a PC in Die Hard. hahaha

[silentsim]

Originally Posted by dobbles

since this thread has been totally hijacked, and because my job is boring, i went over to newegg and looked some stuff up. i am not providing links as i don't care enough to copy and paste all that. this is in regards to that 27" model that was posted.

monitor - they only had 3 27" models and they didn't specifically state if they had IPS, but they looked pretty solid for around $400
processor - intel i5 @ 2.66ghz was $200
ram - 4gb (2x2) of 1066mhz was around $75
hdd - 1tb @ 7200 rpm was around $90
ati radeon 4850 w/512mb of ram was $120
dvd multidrives were around $30
motherboard i looked for a pretty basic model that had ieee 1394 ports, gigabit lan, the audio inputs listed for the mac and found there were many priced around $100
power supply 700W for $75
basic keyboard and moue $30
speakers @ 24W for $20
bluetooth 2.1 usb adapter for $15
wireless N pci card for $40
basic microphone $10
media card reader for $20
webcam simple 1.3mp for $50
windows OS around $150

that gives a total of $1475. i tried not to just pick the absolute lowest priced components. just as i do when i shop, i looked for some well rated versions and then picked an average price. with all the components you might be able to save a few bucks in some places and lose a few in others.

i know there will probably be more hyper analytic complaints about my choices, but i would be able to build a comparable system for hundreds less. so i will continue to hold to the mac is more expensive mantra.

EDIT: forgot to add a case. since most cases are aestetic choices, i will just add $50 for that. they start on newegg around 20 bucks, so i think 50 is reasonable. updated the total to reflect that.

If a monitor doesn't say IPS, its a TN , or a VA(which it would also say for)

IPS is something they brag about. A 27" IPS panel would be very very expensive , and the iMac also is an LED panel.

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

Mac's are over-priced. That's a simple fact that would be tough to argue.
High end Windows based PCs are over-priced too - no argument from me on that one either.

This is getting closer to the truth, but is still incorrect.

They aren't overpriced - they command higher margins. Because the market segment that wants high end computer equipment will pay higher margins, and also because volumes are lower, and even, in some cases, because there are fewer high end components available in the pipeline, which means they are more expensive (eg. the Macbook Air uses a custom packaged Intel CPU, or for another example, the DDR3 notebook RAM in the first-gen aluminum Macbooks was much more expensive because there were extremely few DDR3 notebooks out a year ago)

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Ahhh, now I get it. You're equating "more than you're willing to pay" to being "over-priced."

Man, this would have been nice to figure out 4 pages ago.

No. I'd be willing to pay that extra $600 the computer was 2.5x times better.

Its not going to make me 2.5x more productive. Its not going to make the e-mails I get 2.5x more interesting. I'm not going to be able to find 2.5x better deals on eBay. Its not going to make the people on calgarypuck 2.5x smarter and more interesting.

For what most people are getting out of those hardware upgrades, they're overpriced.

[The Ditch]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Ahhh, now I get it. You're equating "more than you're willing to pay" to being "over-priced."

Man, this would have been nice to figure out 4 pages ago.

That the argument everyone uses when they argue about Macs with me. I don't really get bothered by it I actually used to be so anti mac, now the only PC I use is a netbook my company has me use.

One of the reasons I like having my Mac is apple care and the protection plans and how easy it is for me to get parts replaced or problems fixed. I used to build my own PC but when something would go wrong I would have to fight with each different manufacturer or the store I bought it from. had to worry about having correct drivers and software for everything. Of course had to find usable Windows CD Keys because heaven forbid I actually pay for it.

In the end to me it's worth it for the ease of use, ie the difference in price between building it yourself and having to worry about all problems myself or knowing that if there's a problem it will be taken care of.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

Oh yeah. Mac guy saves the world with a PC in Die Hard. hahaha

PC guy saves the world with a Mac in Independence Day!

(Also, PC guy in commercials is actually Mac guy in real life!)

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

This is getting closer to the truth, but is still incorrect.

They aren't overpriced - they command higher margins. Because the market segment that wants high end computer equipment will pay higher margins, and also because volumes are lower, and even, in some cases, because there are fewer high end components available in the pipeline, which means they are more expensive (eg. the Macbook Air uses a custom packaged Intel CPU, or for another example, the DDR3 notebook RAM in the first-gen aluminum Macbooks was much more expensive because there were extremely few DDR3 notebooks out a year ago)

Just because the market will bear the higher margins and their over-pricedness doesn't make them not over-priced.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

Just because the market will bear the higher margins and their more-than-I'm-willing-to-payness doesn't make them not more-than-I'm-willing-to-pay.

It's all good. I got your back.

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

Just because the market will bear the higher margins and their over-pricedness doesn't make them not over-priced.

When the market does not bear higher margin machines, all you are left with is junk like eMachines. I'm not sure what else you can do.

Apple won't play the race to the bottom, fortunately.

[3 Justin 3]

I feel proud to have started an argument about $400 computers.

In simplicity form, Microsoft advertises to everyone, Apple advertises to elitist ######s. Yeah, I said it.