Bow River Flow

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

So the options are
1) Druh didn't have a plan, and just wanted to close the street to be "Progressive"
2) Druh knew about the Festival, but for some reason forgot to mention it when being highly critcised for just wanting to close a road
3) Druh deliberately didn't tell anyone about the festival for some unknown reason
4) Druh did mention it, but no one here has found that quote yet

Read 4x4s post above about how he heard the proposed idea at the time. I remember hearing the same. Do I remember where I heard it? No. I think the word "festival" might be the hang up here. They didn't mention "festival" because the event isn't really a festival like the other festivals in town are. They didn't want people to say, "oh, just another festival." They wanted it to be something a little bit different, which it is and was.

It WAS explained at the time that it's about opening up some lanes for rollerbladers, bikers, street hockey, whatever. For stuff that doesn't really have to be "organized", per se. There also was a little bit of organized stuff thrown in (demonstrations, etc.), and most of that didn't happen in the closed off lanes.

And echoing 4x4 above, where else can you close down even a short stretch of road connected to existing greenspace, where you are only closing down lanes, and no traffic needs to cross through those lanes? Not too many places in Calgary.

[4X4]

It was the idea from the get go. That's exactly what they said they wanted to do... Close the road so that people would bike and walk on it. Why are you so unclear on this. We're the ones that started calling it a festival and equating it to a festival - because hopefully that's what it becomes.

edit* beaten by thneed

[Bobblehead]

How badly was traffic affected?

People say there was a backup, but did it add 5 minutes or 30 minutes to people driving by?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by 4X4

It was the idea from the get go. That's exactly what they said they wanted to do... Close the road so that people would bike and walk on it.

Okay, so if that's the idea, how is it a good idea? Pathway next to the river vs. closed lanes next to clogged lanes... hmm... I'll take the pathway please, and apparently so would most other people.

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

People say there was a backup, but did it add 5 minutes or 30 minutes to people driving by?

For the purposes of people attending the event is really doesn't matter. Either way, right next to the lanes that are closed for your enjoyment are two lanes of congested traffic.

[Jedi Ninja]

Originally Posted by 4X4

It was the idea from the get go. That's exactly what they said they wanted to do... Close the road so that people would bike and walk on it. Why are you so unclear on this. We're the ones that started calling it a festival and equating it to a festival - because hopefully that's what it becomes.

edit* beaten by thneed

As someone who actually biked on the closed road that day, I have to say that it was a fail if that was the objective. The length of the closure was too short to really be meaningful, and then then at the east end, where the closure ended there was no way to get back onto the pathway as it is physically separated from the roadway there. I would much rather have stayed on the pathway where there is at least something to see. But they'd set up all the tents by the pathway so there was a lot of pedestrian congestion. Really, if anything, it was a detriment to biking.

As constructive feedback, I'd say they should use the street next year for the tents and displays, and leave the pathway clear for travel.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Jedi Ninja

As constructive feedback, I'd say they should use the street next year for the tents and displays, and leave the pathway clear for travel.

That sounds logical. Kinda surprised that that wasn't how it was done. If you think about it, it's a pretty cool place to have the event because of easy access and the bike path going right along it. Eventually kinks will be worked out, I'm sure.

[Bigtime]

I'm sure next years version will be much improved over this year. Can anyone remember the last festival that had to perform under so much scrutiny? The turnout was good for a first try, you don't end up with Lilac festival numbers instantly.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by SebC

For the purposes of people attending the event is really doesn't matter. Either way, right next to the lanes that are closed for your enjoyment are two lanes of congested traffic.

People are complaining about closing Memorial.

If closing 2 of the lanes resulted in a 5 minute drive becoming an 8 minute drive by then no big deal.

If closing 2 of the lanes resulted in a 5 minute drive becoming an 35 minute drive by then some sort of a better plan needs to be arrived at.

The people that actually lived there didn't seem to mind. And if it didn't have much impact on the people driving by then I won't see a problem with it.

But it just seems like a whole lot of arguing in this thread and I am just trying to figure out how big of an issue it really is without all the hyperbole.


And from what I recall, the plan was to just shut Memorial for 4 Sundays, and when there was a backlash it became one Sunday and a festival was conceived. Definitely struck me as a hamfisted way of trying to do it.

[troutman]

IIRC, this whole idea was based on a similar program from Winnipeg:

http://winnipeg.cityguide.ca/ellice-...7th-020468.php

Ellice will be hosting its 9th annual Ellice Street Festival next Sunday, June 7th from noon until 4:30pm. Streets from Langside to Sherbrook will be closed so that this great event can take place. There will be lots of face painting, magic, clowns, carnival, street hockey, basketball, BBQ and music by Billy Joe Green, Magnificent 7's, Coffieman, Hot Dogg.

http://osbornestreetfest.com/canadaday.htm

This year, Osborne Village will come alive for a day and a half, with the Street closing the evening of June 30th and all day July 1st. Over the Course of Winnipeg’s largest and longest running Canada Day Street Festival, with the assistance from Mother Nature, we shall see over 70,000 people through the festival site.

I don't know if these are the only ones, or how successful it is, or whether the closed roads are major routes.

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Plan it, like you say, deals with the designations of roads, not with festivals. So they are totally unrelated.

EXACTLY!!! Ding ding ding......

There was NO festival planned beforehand as you previously indicated and wanted proof indicating otherwise. The festival was an afterthought to her initial intentions, closing the road to allow cyclists ETC to use instead.

Your "common sense" comments and everything else were debunked with that simple link. Her intention was never about a festival.

Originally Posted by Bigtime

Thanks Thneed, you beat me to the reply button.

Strike two....

Look guys (gals, or tweeners) the proof of her intentions are in that video. There is NOTHING about a festival, good bad or otherwise. She wanted to close the road and test what would happen. That is the extent of her thought process.

In time, the project was scaled back, and then a festival concept came about, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Get it?

I would think the other side of the river would have been a much better choice for this activity, not Memorial.

More time to set up/take down vendor stalls, porta potties, etc with minimal disruption to traffic. It would also be closer to the LRT for people able to come from all parts of town to enjoy.

Nope, she wanted Memorial. That part I don't agree with.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

EXACTLY!!! Ding ding ding......

There was NO festival planned beforehand as you previously indicated and wanted proof indicating otherwise. The festival was an afterthought to her initial intentions, closing the road to allow cyclists ETC to use instead.

Your "common sense" comments and everything else were debunked with that simple link. Her intention was never about a festival.

Ummmm, what? You mentioned Plan-it, saying that this event was because of Plan-it. Bigtime and I said Plan-it is totally unrelated to this event. The line you quoted shows it. Druh referenced plan-it to figure out the road's designation, nothing more.

Strike two....

Look guys (gals, or tweeners) the proof of her intentions are in that video. There is NOTHING about a festival, good bad or otherwise. She wanted to close the road and test what would happen. That is the extent of her thought process.

In time, the project was scaled back, and then a festival concept came about, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Get it?

I would think the other side of the river would have been a much better choice for this activity, not Memorial.

More time to set up/take down vendor stalls, porta potties, etc with minimal disruption to traffic. It would also be closer to the LRT for people able to come from all parts of town to enjoy.

Nope, she wanted Memorial. That part I don't agree with.

See the conversation a few posts ago. What happened yesterday was exactly what was planned from even before the debate of April/May.

[SilverGS]

When I first heard about this I thought to myself what a stupid thing to do. However, I wanted to get a lot more info before coming saying anything about the issue.

From the posted youtube video it really sounds like she just wanted to shutdown the street to create a larger area or parkway for bikers and bladers to use. This is because it seems the paths are quite congested and can be dangerous with bladers and bikers going faster dodging many people on foot and families with strollers and young children out for a sunday afternoon. It does not sound like there was any festival planned whatsoever.

Highlighted points for this idea:
- Originally wanted the 4 slowest sundays of the year. Obviously got 1.
- She envisionsed a lot bigger parkway from maybe Parkdale to Centre street
- She mentioned this parkway might only be from morning and end around 1pm when the height of traffice normally begins.
- Other locations were considered but they decided on Memorial since they figured 16th could handle the east-west traffic and the renovations make it a much nicer street to ride along.
- This was to be an experiment to see if it would work as a parkway and see if it was worthwhile to continue.
- Cost was considered minimal since only a road blockage was originally considered

Sounds like there were some good and bad things that came out of this limited experiment.
- A potential new festival could be in the works due to initial idea
- People didn't really use the road due to exhaust from slow cars on other side.
- Increased traffic in residential areas due to shortcut seekers

IMO, it seems like a decent idea but was poorly implemented. The festival did seem like a last minute idea and only had a few weeks to be planned. As has been mentioned, first time festivals don't normally have a good turn out so could of been isolated to the wide green space right beside the river instead of blocking the road.

I am not conviced that we need to have a parkway in Calgary at this time. Although, I am biased since I do not use those pathways and do not know how crowded they are. We have Glenmore park, Eau Claire, paths all along the bow that go all the way along up towards Silversprings, and Princess Island park to name a few. I understand Memorial is more congested then the rest so why not widen the path or something to help eleviate congestion. There seems to be quite a room between the river and Memorial for a wider or second pathway. We are a very sprawled out city with lots of room unlike NY which has limited room and a lot more ppl.

[Shawnski]

BTW, if anyone missed the initial thread on the "River Fest", it is here...

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=73228

Lots more discussion there, and of course, lots more links to relevant info at the time it occurred.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by troutman

IIRC, this whole idea was based on a similar program from Winnipeg:

<snip>

I don't know if these are the only ones, or how successful it is, or whether the closed roads are major routes.

The first one would be like closing 20th ave NW- a bit of a main route that is still pretty much residential. The second would be like closing a section of Centre street N- a major route but there are still other major routes within a km in each direction.

[TurnedTheCorner]

I propose we pave over the river to allow better traffic flow.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

I propose we pave over the river to allow better traffic flow.

Or we could build a bridge over the Bow that looks like a chinese finger trap. Really, how much could that cost?

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I still don't buy the argument that the festival was only planned after the closure debate.

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

It's likely (probobly certain) that the festival organizers had talked about doing the closure every Sunday afternoon in August. That's why Druh was talking about it that way.

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

It's time for your side of the argument to back up this assertion. Common sense tells all of us that they were trying to close lanes because something was already being planned.

These are your words. You were adament that a festival was planned before any lane closures were debated and wanted proof otherwise. I provided that proof by stating that there was a different goal in mind, driven by Druh via (not DUE to) the Plan It Calgary project (and so stated in her own words.) This was NOT because of Plan-It as you said I said in your post below.

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Ummmm, what? You mentioned Plan-it, saying that this event was because of Plan-it. Bigtime and I said Plan-it is totally unrelated to this event. The line you quoted shows it. Druh referenced plan-it to figure out the road's designation, nothing more.

I understand if you and Bigtime misread my posts. It happens.

Heck, from my perspective, this "festival" isn't one so perhaps I am misreading things too... it now appears to me that this is simply "bike path overflow".

Now if THAT is the case, and this isn't to be turned into another Lilac Fest or something, then it is even worse. Why close down streets when Calgary has the most bike paths available than any other major city in the world (as far as I recall.) Why not just use and promote them ALL? Would this not be better thinking? You would get the whole city involved, not just one ward. People may not even know how good a system we have here, so they could be taught.

No, this was different. And ultimately dumb. I used to ride and rollerblade a ton. Would I want to do it next to a couple lines of slow moving, exhaust spewing vehicles? Not a chance.

Bottom line for me, epic fail. If it WAS a festival (i.e. Lilac style) that they want to start, there are better places for it. If it was to get people out biking, blading etc, it again was the wrong place to do it.

[arsenal]

A better idea would be to have people set up booths etc all over the city, along the bike paths (where it makes sense). Maybe a scavenger hunt for those that want to have one, and get people to pick items up at 8 or 9 different booth locations (N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW, Central).

Maybe have the hub of the festival at princes island park, and branch out from there.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

These are your words. You were adament that a festival was planned before any lane closures were debated and wanted proof otherwise. I provided that proof by stating that there was a different goal in mind, driven by Druh via (not DUE to) the Plan It Calgary project (and so stated in her own words.) This was NOT because of Plan-It as you said I said in your post below.

The original comment about plan it had nothing to do with my other arguements. It was merely a correction of what Plan-it is. Plan-it has nothing to do with this festival. Plan-it is a guidebook for development in this city in the future. This event/festival has nothing to with development in the city, therefore, they are not related.


Not believing that this event/festival is required is fair enough. In Druh's words herself, it's a trial event. I'm sure every detail, from the location, to the time, to the size of closure will all be reviewed when/if they want to do it again. I wasn't there, but the accounts I've heard have said it went pretty well, especially for a first time event. Obviously, there is quite a bit of room for improvement.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

The original comment about plan it had nothing to do with my other arguements. It was merely a correction of what Plan-it is. Plan-it has nothing to do with this festival. Plan-it is a guidebook for development in this city in the future. This event/festival has nothing to with development in the city, therefore, they are not related.

His point is that Farrell's reasons for wanting to close the road and the festival are not connected either.