Bow River Flow

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

That's pretty much what she did, IMO at least. It looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

We don't have public discussion on road closures, because we don't want the public to decide which closures (due to festivals) are acceptable and which ones are not. Certainly you can see that that wouldn't be a wise policy.

There's the big problem.
"Pretty much what she did, in my opinion" after the fact, is a far cry from Druh coming out and saying "We want to have a festival, that's why we're closing the roads". The point is that IF the festival was the reason for the closure and not vice versa, then why didn't she explictly say it in the first place.

It's not a matter of letting the public decide if the road should close, that's still up to council, it's a matter of setting the record straight, so she could avoid all of the negative press and criticism. But for the ammount of flak she was taking, over what was preceived at the time (and still is) as a closure for the sake of a clousre, why didn't it occure to her to expliclty mention a festival?

You can point to qotes now that you Think hint towards a festival, but why can't anyone find actual mention of it?

I'm no fan of Druh, and this is another reason why.
It was either stupid of her to try to close a road for no reason, or it was a monumental failure on her part to communicate why she wanted to do something that was being highly criticised, or to even promote what you claim she wanted to be some sort of big event for her riding.

FAIL all around.

[Bobblehead]

Should they try again next year?

People are complaining about how this year's whole event (or non-event) occurred, should they start planning for next year, or scrap it?

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

There's the big problem.
"Pretty much what she did, in my opinion" after the fact, is a far cry from Druh coming out and saying "We want to have a festival, that's why we're closing the roads". The point is that IF the festival was the reason for the closure and not vice versa, then why didn't she explictly say it in the first place.

Already explained.

It's not a matter of letting the public decide if the road should close, that's still up to council, it's a matter of setting the record straight, so she could avoid all of the negative press and criticism. But for the ammount of flak she was taking, over what was preceived at the time (and still is) as a closure for the sake of a clousre, why didn't it occure to her to expliclty mention a festival?

It's not up to council, also as I've already explained. And IMO, she explained what it was for, the media outlets twisted her words to say that "it was just for fun" or something like that. It appears many people bought in to the media's portrayal. IMO, of course.

or it was a monumental failure on her part to communicate why she wanted to do something that was being highly criticised, or to even promote what you claim she wanted to be some sort of big event for her riding.

My opinion again, of course: It would be a big waste of time for public officials to try and get on the defensive every time the media outlets spun something like this. They'd spend all their time doing that and not doing anything productive. It doesn't really sway people anyway. Smart people try to research the background information, and form a informed decision (as we have all tried to do here), then there's the majority that just believe everything the media tells them anyway.

[4X4]

I thought it was fairly clear that the intention was not so much a festival, but to get more foot traffic and biking and rollerbladers out. I recall them saying they hoped some street hockey games would spring up as well. And of course, they hoped that some local businesses would have a presence as well.

I really don't get why some of you are so outraged by this. To me, this is like those friday or saturday nights where you invite over a few friends just to hang out and then more and more people come and it becomes epic.

All these comments about how it failed miserably make no sense. It wasn't supposed to be a barn burner. It was supposed to take over the street with people not in cars. Obviously, that is the biggest piss off to most of you, but it was also the whole point of the closure. To take over one of our nicest streets for four days. And for it to hopefully evolve into something really cool (hence the four consecutive Sundays).
I just don't get why some people are so pissed. The other lanes were open. Cars got through. What's the big deal? Were you guys late for church because of it? Yeesh.
I don't remember anyone complaining about the Red Mile. And the first few wins were just a few people. And it got bigger and bigger and bigger and became epic. I'm sure someone will reply that there was a purpose to it and there's none here, but if you like wandering around in a sea of people on a summer afternoon, do you really need a theme? Bow River Flow can mean just about anything.

I, for one, hope that they get all four Sundays next year and that this idea doesn't die because a few people are outraged by the sheer idea of it, even though it absolutely doesn't affect them AT ALL.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Already explained.



It's not up to council, also as I've already explained. And IMO, she explained what it was for, the media outlets twisted her words to say that "it was just for fun" or something like that. It appears many people bought in to the media's portrayal. IMO, of course.

My opinion again, of course: It would be a big waste of time for public officials to try and get on the defensive every time the media outlets spun something like this. They'd spend all their time doing that and not doing anything productive. It doesn't really sway people anyway. Smart people try to research the background information, and form a informed decision (as we have all tried to do here), then there's the majority that just believe everything the media tells them anyway.

Really? You think it would have been a big waste of time for her to come out and say "We aren't just closing this street for fun, we are planning a festival".

That's a waste of time?
I think it's a much bigger waste of time to try to organize a festival and not once mention it. ESPECIALLY when one of the supposed necesities of this festival is being criticised as a completely pointless road closure.

Do you honestly think that the papers in town are so anti Druh that they wouldn't publish anything to do with this festival just to spite her?

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

If you think this closure had anything to do with the Plan-It document then you are the one who is off base.

The two are not connected at all. Get your facts straight.

From the link I provided... the very FIRST words out of her mouth were... "We're looking at Plan It Calgary, and the designation of our different roads in the system..."

Nice swing and miss, Bigtime.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I thought it was fairly clear that the intention was not so much a festival, but to get more foot traffic and biking and rollerbladers out. I recall them saying they hoped some street hockey games would spring up as well. And of course, they hoped that some local businesses would have a presence as well.

I really don't get why some of you are so outraged by this. To me, this is like those friday or saturday nights where you invite over a few friends just to hang out and then more and more people come and it becomes epic.

All these comments about how it failed miserably make no sense. It wasn't supposed to be a barn burner. It was supposed to take over the street with people not in cars. Obviously, that is the biggest piss off to most of you, but it was also the whole point of the closure. To take over one of our nicest streets for four days. And for it to hopefully evolve into something really cool (hence the four consecutive Sundays).
I just don't get why some people are so pissed. The other lanes were open. Cars got through. What's the big deal? Were you guys late for church because of it? Yeesh.
I don't remember anyone complaining about the Red Mile. And the first few wins were just a few people. And it got bigger and bigger and bigger and became epic. I'm sure someone will reply that there was a purpose to it and there's none here, but if you like wandering around in a sea of people on a summer afternoon, do you really need a theme? Bow River Flow can mean just about anything.

I, for one, hope that they get all four Sundays next year and that this idea doesn't die because a few people are outraged by the sheer idea of it, even though it absolutely doesn't affect them AT ALL.

The event has to be worthwhile to merit closing down a major street and causing a hassell. By most accounts - it wasn't. And again that comes down to a lack of planning.

Frankly hanging around a hot street and breathing in exhaust from cars going the other way doesn't strike me is a grand old time anyways - which is why the bulk of people that went - stayed on the path.

Roads are for cars.
Paths/Grass are for people.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Should they try again next year?

People are complaining about how this year's whole event (or non-event) occurred, should they start planning for next year, or scrap it?

Even though I was critical of a lot of the details of this festival (as posted above) I'm entirely on board with them doing it again next year, and aiming much bigger. In talking with my neighbours, people were universally in favour of it, despite the problems; most of the problems dealt with the lack of interesting activities, not the road closure. As long as there are people with the energy to organize it, it'll be a go for future years.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I thought it was fairly clear that the intention was not so much a festival, but to get more foot traffic and biking and rollerbladers out. I recall them saying they hoped some street hockey games would spring up as well. And of course, they hoped that some local businesses would have a presence as well.

I really don't get why some of you are so outraged by this. To me, this is like those friday or saturday nights where you invite over a few friends just to hang out and then more and more people come and it becomes epic.

All these comments about how it failed miserably make no sense. It wasn't supposed to be a barn burner. It was supposed to take over the street with people not in cars. Obviously, that is the biggest piss off to most of you, but it was also the whole point of the closure. To take over one of our nicest streets for four days. And for it to hopefully evolve into something really cool (hence the four consecutive Sundays).
I just don't get why some people are so pissed. The other lanes were open. Cars got through. What's the big deal? Were you guys late for church because of it? Yeesh.
I don't remember anyone complaining about the Red Mile. And the first few wins were just a few people. And it got bigger and bigger and bigger and became epic. I'm sure someone will reply that there was a purpose to it and there's none here, but if you like wandering around in a sea of people on a summer afternoon, do you really need a theme? Bow River Flow can mean just about anything.

I, for one, hope that they get all four Sundays next year and that this idea doesn't die because a few people are outraged by the sheer idea of it, even though it absolutely doesn't affect them AT ALL.

I think one of the issues that people have is the sheer ######edness of closing down a major road so that people could get outside.
In a city with as many parks, and with the quality of those parks, to just shut down Memorial Drive as an excuse to get people outside is ridiculous.

There are great parks on either side of Memorial drive. Those are the kinds of places you want to get people out to.
I was inclined to get outside yesterday so I went to Bowness park, becasue it is a great place to get outside and go for a walk with my friends and their dogs. The eastbound lanes of a major thoroughfare next to a line of slow moving traffic is not the kind of place I'd want to hang out, let alone take pets or children.

To me it's the absurdity of closing a road so you can get peple to enjoy the outdoors, something Calgary (especially that part of it) is not lacking in opportunites to do. Then to gloss it over by throwing together a festival, is just silly.

The Alderman of this city should be doing more to promote our cities great greenspaces, not trying to get people to go for a stroll down a strip of asphalt.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Really? You think it would have been a big waste of time for her to come out and say "We aren't just closing this street for fun, we are planning a festival".

That's a waste of time?
I think it's a much bigger waste of time to try to organize a festival and not once mention it. ESPECIALLY when one of the supposed necesities of this festival is being criticised as a completely pointless road closure.

Do you honestly think that the papers in town are so anti Druh that they wouldn't publish anything to do with this festival just to spite her?

No, I don't think it would have been a big waste of time in her saying it, but I don't think people would have been listening. That's what makes it a waste of time.

I've seen it with other issues in this city (Calatrava bridge for one), where people have had misconceptions, then public officials have responded to those misconceptions, but the public goes on having their misconeptions. And the media (esp the Sun) feeds those misconceptions.

What I'm saying is that if the public officials tried to make EVERYONE understand, they wouldn't have any time for anything else.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Should they try again next year?

People are complaining about how this year's whole event (or non-event) occurred, should they start planning for next year, or scrap it?

Unless the charity they associated with lost money, it will be back. Can't take away from a charity. I think they should move it across the river, there's a nice green space there. Of course, then you'd actually have to have an event worth attending and you wouldn't be able to spite the people who have the audacity to drive their car in what is a very car-oriented city, especially on Sundays. If you want to get people to use alternative transit, there are better ways to do it than closing half of Memorial.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

From the link I provided... the very FIRST words out of her mouth were... "We're looking at Plan It Calgary, and the designation of our different roads in the system..."

Nice swing and miss, Bigtime.

Plan it, like you say, deals with the designations of roads, not with festivals. So they are totally unrelated.

[Bigtime]

Thanks Thneed, you beat me to the reply button.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I think one of the issues that people have is the sheer ######edness of closing down a major road so that people could get outside.
In a city with as many parks, and with the quality of those parks, to just shut down Memorial Drive as an excuse to get people outside is ridiculous.

There are great parks on either side of Memorial drive. Those are the kinds of places you want to get people out to.
I was inclined to get outside yesterday so I went to Bowness park, becasue it is a great place to get outside and go for a walk with my friends and their dogs. The eastbound lanes of a major thoroughfare next to a line of slow moving traffic is not the kind of place I'd want to hang out, let alone take pets or children.

To me it's the absurdity of closing a road so you can get peple to enjoy the outdoors, something Calgary (especially that part of it) is not lacking in opportunites to do. Then to gloss it over by throwing together a festival, is just silly.

The Alderman of this city should be doing more to promote our cities great greenspaces, not trying to get people to go for a stroll down a strip of asphalt.

But you can't rollerblade on grass....

I understand that you and many other peopel have no desire to join this, but is it alright for other people to enjoy it? Octothorp lives there and he and his neighbours apparently like it and want it to go again. So why someone like yourself (a northie, IIRC) or resolute (a deep southie really care is interesting to me.

Sure, cars are for roads, but look at the Salsa festival or the Lilac festival. They're both awesome ways to spend a day. I personally rarely miss either, but some of my friends can't be bothered. They hate it and I understand why. But that doesn't mean I can't have my fun.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

No, I don't think it would have been a big waste of time in her saying it, but I don't think people would have been listening. That's what makes it a waste of time.

I've seen it with other issues in this city (Calatrava bridge for one), where people have had misconceptions, then public officials have responded to those misconceptions, but the public goes on having their misconeptions. And the media (esp the Sun) feeds those misconceptions.

What I'm saying is that if the public officials tried to make EVERYONE understand, they wouldn't have any time for anything else.

But in this case I can't see any evidence for Druh even trying to make her case for a festival.

The bridge, yes, most people are still against it becasue of the price tag, but I've seen an enormous ammount of information about why they are spending that money on this bridge. Sure people aren't listening, but the information is there.

That's not the case here, I've yet to see anything where Druh mentions any sort of festival in the initial reasoning for closing down Memorial.

So does that mean she decided, "To hell with everyone, they aren't going to listen so I'm not gonna tell them what I'm up to"
If that's the case then that is even worse than her being stupid. That is her being completely non-transparent.

Now I've made my thoughts know pretty clearly in more than one debate with Tower, that I don't like people who jump to the sinister motives boat when the GIANT SHIP OF STUPIDITY is still firmly tied to the dock.

So the options are
1) Druh didn't have a plan, and just wanted to close the street to be "Progressive"
2) Druh knew about the Festival, but for some reason forgot to mention it when being highly critcised for just wanting to close a road
3) Druh deliberately didn't tell anyone about the festival for some unknown reason
4) Druh did mention it, but no one here has found that quote yet

Of those 4 choices only 1 can really be proven and that is #4, and if it is, super I'll take it all back, and just fall back to Druh doing a piss poor job of promoting her festival.

Of the other three which is more likely. That she intentionlly didn't mention it, that she forgot to mention the one thing that would keep her from being criticized, or that this is another case of a council member doing something withouth first thinking it through 100%?

I know which way I'm leaning.

[Byrns]

Originally Posted by 4X4

But you can't rollerblade on grass....

I understand that you and many other peopel have no desire to join this, but is it alright for other people to enjoy it? Octothorp lives there and he and his neighbours apparently like it and want it to go again. So why someone like yourself (a northie, IIRC) or resolute (a deep southie really care is interesting to me.

Sure, cars are for roads, but look at the Salsa festival or the Lilac festival. They're both awesome ways to spend a day. I personally rarely miss either, but some of my friends can't be bothered. They hate it and I understand why. But that doesn't mean I can't have my fun.

And funny enough nobody's complaining to shut them down, yet they're questioning the logic of this road closure. What's difference? HINT: It's a dumb location.

[4X4]

And I meant to add that another reason why I like this idea is because if I don't have the time to actually wander around in it, I can still drive by it and see what's going on. Can't do that at Lilac, Salsa, or any of the festivals on Prince's Island or Eau Claire.

I just think it's a neat, fresh idea. Hopefully it's better advertised next year with some bridge banners or something.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Byrns

And funny enough nobody's complaining to shut them down, yet they're questioning the logic of this road closure. What's difference? HINT: It's a dumb location.

Why is the location dumb? It's nice and close to Kensington, yet it doesn't close any roads. It's right by the river and there's already a nice strip of path and greenspace right there. Plus with all the new gardens they built, there's a nice divider between the the BRF and traffic.

Where is a better location?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by 4X4

But you can't rollerblade on grass....

Yeah, but if it was across the street, then there's grass for tents/people, a slow path, and a fast path. And, you're not next to a traffic jam. Bonus!

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by 4X4

But you can't rollerblade on grass....

I understand that you and many other peopel have no desire to join this, but is it alright for other people to enjoy it? Octothorp lives there and he and his neighbours apparently like it and want it to go again. So why someone like yourself (a northie, IIRC) or resolute (a deep southie really care is interesting to me.

Sure, cars are for roads, but look at the Salsa festival or the Lilac festival. They're both awesome ways to spend a day. I personally rarely miss either, but some of my friends can't be bothered. They hate it and I understand why. But that doesn't mean I can't have my fun.

I'm not saying they can't have fun.
I had a few points.

1) I belive this started as just an excuse to close Memorial so people could rollerblade or whatever down it. Don't go ahead after the fact and say that it was all just a big misunderstanding and you wanted to have festivals 4 weeks in a row. Call it what it is.

2) If indeed the idea is to have a festival like this to get people out to promote alternative ways to get around, why hold it where you have to shut down a major road to show people how alternative friendly the city is. There are a lot of great places where this could be done with a lot of great paths that are bike and rollerblade friendly. And you wouldn't have a bunch of parked cars next to the event.
Oooh look at us, we're really set up for people to get around city without cars.....if you ignore all those cars....and the fact that this can't be done here on the other 364 days of the year.

If they want to do a proper festival, and close down memorial, by all means go ahead. In fact close the whole damn road if you want lets do it properly.
I really think Memorial Drive would be a great place to hold a BIG festival of some sort, but for the love of God just close the whole thing and make it about a proper festival, not just a road closure.

But don't throw out a stuid idea like closing a road just so people can rollerblade down a street 20 feet from a great pathway, and then wrap it up in some ill conceived backup plan to make it look like it was some grand idea from the get go.