Confederate Flag

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

I do not like this cartoon.

Its actually kind of stupid. Slavery existed a lot longer under the stars and stripes than it ever did under the stars and bars.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Fair enough...but I think it makes a good point that some look at the Confederate flag and see an emblem of personal military history...

[fatso]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

Its actually kind of stupid. Slavery existed a lot longer under the stars and stripes than it ever did under the stars and bars.

Hang on a second. Are you saying that the Union perpetuated slavery after winning the Civil war and that the Confederate states would have abolished slavery but for the Union's victory?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by fatso

Hang on a second. Are you saying that the Union perpetuated slavery after winning the Civil war and that the Confederate states would have abolished slavery but for the Union's victory?

Yes, if the Union wouldn't have won, slavery would have eventually been abolished anyways.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

I do not like this cartoon.

You need to burn a bunch of flags and start a jihad.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by Azure

Yes, if the Union wouldn't have won, slavery would have eventually been abolished anyways.

So if the Union had lost, slavery would have been ended in the Southern states? Therefore, the Union prolonged slavery? Is that the argument?

I am honestly having a tough time following this...

Wasn't the institution of slavery abolished in 1865 precisely because the Union won and ultimately passed the 13th amendment rendering slavery illegal?

Sure, Reconstruction after the war saw a whole lot of clever ways to render black people less than white people (particularly at the courts), but the formal end of Slavery was due to Union winning and demanding blacks be recognized at law as people as opposed to property. No?

[Azure]

Well, obviously you can't say for sure.....but chances are that slavery would have ended both in the North AND South had the Union lost.

The war wasn't just about slavery. Thats just the story everyone likes to hear, considering history can't be written to show that the awesome Union fought against what the founding fathers had intended for the US -- formal state rights.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by fatso

Hang on a second. Are you saying that the Union perpetuated slavery after winning the Civil war and that the Confederate states would have abolished slavery but for the Union's victory?

Actually I was just pointing out that slavery existed in the Southern States under this flag from 1777 to 1861. (stars were added over the years as more states were included to the Union).



Slavery only existed under this flag from 1861 to 1865.






Would anybody be offended if I flew this flag?

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

Would anybody be offended if I flew this flag?

I HATE SOMALIA! if you don't get it, I don't care

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by Azure

Yes, if the Union wouldn't have won, slavery would have eventually been abolished anyways.

This is an important and easily forgotten point. The CSA made overtures to receptive representatives in Paris and London for support in the war against the North. Both European governments diplomatically told the South slavery would have to be abolished eventually.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

This is an important and easily forgotten point. The CSA made overtures to receptive representatives in Paris and London for support in the war against the North. Both European governments diplomatically told the South slavery would have to be abolished eventually.

Mechanization would have eliminated the need for some slave labour in agriculture as well.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

I HATE SOMALIA! if you don't get it, I don't care

Hurrah! Hurrah!
For Southern Rights, Hurrah!
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single Star!

Edit:

We are a band of brothers and native to the soil
Fighting for our Liberty, With treasure, blood and toil
And when our rights were threatened, the cry rose near and far
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star!
Chorus:
Hurrah! Hurrah!
For Southern rights, hurrah!
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.
2. As long as the Union was faithful to her trust
Like friends and like brethren, kind were we, and just
But now, when Northern treachery attempts our rights to mar
We hoist on high the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.
Chorus
3. First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand
Then came Alabama and took her by the hand
Next, quickly Mississippi, Georgia, and Florida
All raised on high the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.
Chorus
4. Ye men of valor gather round the banner of the right
Texas and fair Louisiana join us in the fight
Davis, our loved President, and Stephens statesmen rare
Now rally round the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.
Chorus
5. Now here's to brave Virginia, the old Dominion State,
With the young Confederacy at last has sealed her fate,
And spurred by her example, now other states prepare
To hoist high the bonnie blue flag that bears a single star.
Chorus[2]
6. Then cheer, boys, cheer, raise a joyous shout
For Arkansas and North Carolina now have both gone out,
And let another rousing cheer for Tennessee be given,
The single star of the Bonnie Blue Flag has grown to be eleven.
Chorus
7. Then here's to our Confederacy, strong we are and brave,
Like patriots of old we'll fight, our heritage to save;
And rather than submit to shame, to die we would prefer,
So cheer for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.
Chorus[3]

[fatso]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well, obviously you can't say for sure.....but chances are that slavery would have ended both in the North AND South had the Union lost.

The war wasn't just about slavery. Thats just the story everyone likes to hear, considering history can't be written to show that the awesome Union fought against what the founding fathers had intended for the US -- formal state rights.

I agree... to a point.

To be fair, the reason people like to hear that story is because slavery was pretty relevant to the war. I get the whole state rights argument and, believe me, I know frustration with government interference is your shtick, but it's not like the abolitionists and frustration over the Fugitive Slave Law in the North wasn't germane to the Union's actions.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

This is an important and easily forgotten point. The CSA made overtures to receptive representatives in Paris and London for support in the war against the North. Both European governments diplomatically told the South slavery would have to be abolished eventually.

All good points, the clock was ticking for sure. And Europe was certainly leading the way.

But, I don't know what 'eventually' means. And I'm not convinced any progress in mechanization would have been enough economic encouragement to have slaveholders forego the institution without the North's intervention.

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by fatso

All good points, the clock was ticking for sure. And Europe was certainly leading the way.

But, I don't know what 'eventually' means. And I'm not convinced any progress in mechanization would have been enough economic encouragement to have slaveholders forego the institution without the North's intervention.

If the south wins the war they have to start working with the rest of the world (namely western Europe) pretty quick. How long does eventually mean? Probably the second having slaves starts costing them more money on the international trade scene then it saves them in the field. The same people from the north who opposed the south's slavery existed and held the dominate position in the south's logical trading partners.

I've read a few guesses by people smarter then me. Usually it's around 20 years. Before the turn of the century for sure.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by fatso

All good points, the clock was ticking for sure. And Europe was certainly leading the way.

But, I don't know what 'eventually' means. And I'm not convinced any progress in mechanization would have been enough economic encouragement to have slaveholders forego the institution without the North's intervention.

Mechanization would not have eliminated slavery all together. It would have made the use of slave labour obsolete in some agricultural applications.

Still, did the Union invade the South to abolish slavery? Or to stop Secession?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

Still, did the Union invade the South to abolish slavery? Or to stop Secession?

Well, if it was to stop slavery, which a lot of people actually think, 600,000 young men died for absolutely no reason at all.

Slavery, is by extension a racism problem. And racism is still a problem. Sure, nobody has slaves anymore, but not because someone went to war.

Like it has already been pointed out.....the South, AND the North(considering both sides had slaves)...would have eventually abolished slavery. And maybe, as a result....the racism issues that still exist today, would be dead and gone now.

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by Azure

Like it has already been pointed out.....the South, AND the North(considering both sides had slaves)...would have eventually abolished slavery. And maybe, as a result....the racism issues that still exist today, would be dead and gone now.

Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware kindly ask you not to talk about that.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

If the south wins the war they have to start working with the rest of the world (namely western Europe) pretty quick. How long does eventually mean? Probably the second having slaves starts costing them more money on the international trade scene then it saves them in the field. The same people from the north who opposed the south's slavery existed and held the dominate position in the south's logical trading partners.

I've read a few guesses by people smarter then me. Usually it's around 20 years. Before the turn of the century for sure.

I don't buy it...firstly maybe slavery would have ended because of economics but under the southern paradigm would they have been emancipated? That would be a much bigger challenge for Confederate leaders to sell to their constituents.

So you may have slavery becoming obsolete but not ostracized.

If you think full civil rights in the US took too long after the North won...imagine how long the current progress in civil rights would have taken if they had lost.

Since we are on the topic some of you may find this book interesting...

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by driveway

Racism is not about having stereotypes or even being a jerk towards other people based on outward characteristics; that's discrimination.

Racism is about the systematic oppression of a people based on ethnicity. It absolutely requires that one group be more socially powerful than another group for it to exist. This is why the statement "reverse racism" is meaningless.

Black people can't be racist. They can be discriminatory jerks, but they can't be racist.

I have never heard the term reverse racism. If we go by your definition, individuals cannot be racist.

Correct?